So, I had a conversation with God earlier today.
It started off at church. Four weeks ago, we started a study of 1 Corinthians, and got to chapter 4 this morning.
Here's a small excerpt of what we read:
5So be careful not to jump to conclusions before the Lord returns as to whether or not someone is faithful. When the Lord comes, he will bring our deepest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. And then God will give to everyone whatever praise is due.
So God says, "Look, you can disagree with Ray all you want. That's fine. But take another look there at that verse. That one's for you right now."
So, I said to God "Yeah, but didn't you specify in the gospels that there's a difference between judging and being judgmental? I'm not judging hypocritically, which is the thing you have a problem with, right?
Aren't you? What have you said about ministries?
I have said many times that if one ministry is harming another ministry and taking away from it, it needs to shut down.
And besides that, Ray is being faithful to his calling in the way he best knows how. It's not the way I would do it. I disagree with the way he does it. Dislike it, even. But the fact of the matter is, that's not my place as I read this morning.
I can disagree with Ray all I want, but as long as I'm part of a group of people whose sole purpose for banding together is to "Detract" from him, then I can't call myself a faithful follower of Christ.
I will still comment and post on Ray's site. I'll still disagree with Ray. I'll still admit openly that most of you are smarter than I. I'll still tell you the ways that you're cool and actually try to explain how my views are different from yours and why. But I can't do it here any more.
I hope you all find the truth about Jesus. But you know that already. I've never kept that a secret.
And I hope that maybe the college and/or youth kids that I train in the future will know their faith well enough to be able to hold a conversation with you without loosing sight of how cool you are.
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False Convert! You were never a true Raytractor!
ReplyDeleteSeriously though, that's a christian viewpoint I can respect. I've always said I have no problem with christianity in general.
Of course, I think that Ray's farse of a "ministry" isn't worthy of the term, and probably leads more people away from the christian God than to him. In that sense, the Raytractors are on Jesus's side (scary thought). ;)
Watch out though: Terry's already acknowledged you as an atheist-terrorist/internet-thug/juvenile-deliquent.
Rob,
ReplyDeleteWould you have the same problem being part of a group that stands in opposition to, say, Fred Phelps?
Do you figure that he's doing his utmost best by refusing to better what he does?
ReplyDeleteClearly, the man is outright refusing to acknowledge the following:
1. Evidence.
2. Errors.
3. Reality.
He can have all the good intentions he wants, and I'm sure a lot of what he does is a sincere desire to satisfy his god. But What makes a ministry, Rob? Is Living Waters a ministry, or is it a business? Or is it a sham, scam, and ripoff?
Are the Raytractors the ministry taking from the Swamp, or is the Swamp helping take away from all of humanity?
I'm not a bible scholar, nor have I actually read all the Gospels (I'm getting to it), but didn't Jesus go tearing through a church because they weren't teaching the right thing? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm totally grasping at straws about that. :-)
Still, I respect your opinion quite a bit, because even if you take the whole "God" thing out of the equation, your ethical dilemma makes sense to me. I hope you'll still hang out here, even if you're not a labelled Raytractor. You bring a good voice to the table.
Oh No! Did Terry get to you? Well, I wish you all the best.
ReplyDeleteWe don't agree and I think that little voice in your head is called your conscience but honestly people gotta do what they think is best (unless it hurts others, I guess).
And Ray's ministry is all about Ray. Check out all the stuff with his face on it!
@ dave:
ReplyDeleteNot sure if I know who Fred Phelps is.
My problem with being part of a group specifically set apart for the purpose of opposing Ray is that I can see how Ray's ministry, even if I don't like it and disagree with it on many things, is a genuine ministry of God.
If I knew a bit more about Fred Phelps, I might be able to better answer that question.
@ theshaggy:
ReplyDeleteI might hang around and contribute. If I do, I'd have to be uber careful of how I word things and avoid bashing Ray's ministry in inappropriate ways.
But I still haven't decided if my conscience sees that on the same level as contributing actively to tearing down Ray and his ministry.
Yeah, Jesus went through the Temples calling out the Pharisees on their crap. The difference is, Jesus knew that they were not genuinely working toward God's will, and I can see that Ray is genuinely working that way. Even if I don't agree with his methods.
Jesus even said at one point "Their teachings are good. Follow that. However, don't follow the example they set, because they don't practice what they preach."
So, as much as they were doing wrong, he gave credit where credit was due.
Sometimes a ministry is a business, or a business is a ministry. For instance, If your business is dedicated to placing people that you know are Christians into a close working environment with people who you know are not, with the hopes that such a practice will lead people to Christ (and, actually, it works quite well in some places), then that business could also be considered a ministry.
If the only thing you have is your ministry, and you have dedicated your life to doing that ministry, then some how you have to make money. Why not make money by doing what you've dedicated your life to? Ray makes money selling books that he really believes better equips people to do God's work. I see nothing wrong with Ray charging money for his materials.
I do disagree with him billing it as the only way to do things and be faithful to God, and that it's the only way shown in scriptures to operate. But the business part, I don't mind. A guy's gotta eat, even a man of the Lord.
Here's the thing about Ray that I've learned from social psychology:
1) Schema are mental constructs of how the world works. Ray has a mental construct about the Bible that says "Inspired, Inerrant, and completely literal."
2) People are infinitely more likely to attend to social interactions, environmental factors, and other information that they absorb from their world, that agrees with their set Schema. Which means that Ray is not likely to attend to anything that doesn't agree with his view of the Bible.
3) People are not nearly as likely to recall information that they have not attended to.
That's all a big fancy way (which makes me feel smarter than I really am) of saying that Ray's in a Rut, and he's working the best that he can from within that Rut. Things like age and the profoundness with which his mindset affects his life make it really hard to get out of that rut.
I think he's genuine. I don't agree with him, but I really believe that he's genuine. Gotta give him credit for that, because that's hard to find in people these days; especially professing believers.
@ jill d:
ReplyDeleteNo, Terry didn't get to me.
I actually almost waited for a while before leaving, because I was afraid that people would think that I let a guy like Terry get to me. It was the Bible (and therefore God, I believe), that got to me.
Just for the record, I do not believe Terry's genuine. And if he is genuine, then he needs help in a major way.
Rob, I was joking about Terry getting to you.
ReplyDeleteI used to think Terry wasn't real until I read hundreds of his blog posts, myspace stuff, dating sites, and many other web-sites.
(this was when I was making this collage)
Link
Well, crap indeed.
ReplyDeleteKeep thinking critically Rob, you're a bright guy.
If you're like me, the Bible itself and the inconsistancies of Christian theology and the total absense of any difference between "spirit filled" people and the rest of us will slowly but surely erode your faith.
If and when you get to the point when your conscience can no longer allow the pull between what you've benn taught and what you can see is real, then you'll find the release sweet.
Enough preaching from me Rob, I can so understand where you're coming from. You have all my best regards and respect, you're one of the good guys.
Stew
ps - That sounded like a farewell, and I understand comletely that your're not stopping Raytracting, just re-establishing boundaries.
ReplyDeleteRob,
ReplyDeleteFred Phelps
Is it your place to make the determination that his is not a genuine ministry of God?
Thanks for discussing it, Rob.
ReplyDeleteI still do hope bring this type of moderate voice to the site, because it seems that opinions here run the gamut from extreme atheist to slight Christian, so the moderates say good things.
I won't go on about the accuracy of Ray's statements, but I do want to discuss the "benefits" his ministry may or may not bring. He openly encourages willful intellectual ignorance, he displays hypocrisy and a vehement belligerance that sometimes sounds like hate
The people who follow him sound like him, which means either he gathers like-minded people or creates them. He takes their money while peddling ignorant materials and only spends a fraction on charities and the like. From where I stand, he's taking people from otherwise progressive and productive ministries.
You're right, though. I think he is largely genuine and sincere, although spiteful an astoundingly misguided. I would even say that while the Raytractors may seem to want to tear his ministry apart, I (and won't speak for others) would just as readily see him change his mind and ministry into something that actually does some real good. I think we all go about it in the wrong way sometimes, but I think a Raytractor is not about fighting Ray's mission for God, rather fighting the way Ray goes about completing it. We're trying to get him out of the Rut, you might say.
I guess I'm one of those extreme atheists. So be it.
ReplyDeleteRob, I hope you really don't think that you are hearing a voice from an invisible being and that said invisible being is speaking directly to you.
And why is it that when fundies have a thought trot through their heads they think it's a god talking to them? Is is really that hard to accept that human beings have conversations with themselves and/or their subconscious in their heads without bringing in the deity explanation? For some, maybe so.
Rob, how you could not know who Fred Phelps is amazes me, but this statement of yours is disturbing:
"I have said many times that if one ministry is harming another ministry and taking away from it, it needs to shut down."
Rob, ministries full of hate that promote ignorance and lies need to be shut down.
You also said:
"And besides that, Ray is being faithful to his calling in the way he best knows how."
No, he isn't, Rob. Ray is promoting willful ignorance and spreading lies and hatred.
"But the fact of the matter is, that's not my place as I read this morning."
So, what? You're just going to sit around and approve the message of anyone who spews on about Jesus even if they do it in a way that promotes hate, lies and ignorance?
"I can disagree with Ray all I want, but as long as I'm part of a group of people whose sole purpose for banding together is to "Detract" from him, then I can't call myself a faithful follower of Christ."
Uh, yeah ok. So your Christ wants you to sit down and shut up so the dude who promotes ignorance and lies can speak? I'm really glad I'm not a christian anymore, Rob. I'm really glad I don't have to be a mind slave to dogma like this.
"I'll still tell you the ways that you're cool and actually try to explain how my views are different from yours and why. But I can't do it here any more."
Namaste !
"I hope you all find the truth about Jesus."
I did. That's why I'm not a christian anymore.
"And I hope that maybe the college and/or youth kids that I train in the future will know their faith well enough to be able to hold a conversation with you without loosing sight of how cool you are. "
I hope they grow up to think for themselves and forget all of the religious foolishness they've been taught.
@ dave:
ReplyDeleteFred Phelps is that guy?
They are not following God's command to "Go" into the world. The greater majority of their church are all related.
You will know them by their fruits.
Matthew 7:15-20
They don't love their neighbors.
Matthew 22:34-40
They claim that "God hates fags."
Clearly, he does not.
Romans 5:6-8
The entirety of 1 Corinthians chapter 13 is lost on this guy. It doesn't matter what they say or do; it's worthless and does more harm to the Kingdom than good if they lack love. Verses 4-7 would be rather disturbing to them if they actually loved God.
They lack an awful lot of those signs of the spirit of God in a person listed in Galatians 5:22 & 23
1 Thessalonians 3:11-13 talks about how we should not just love Christians, but should love every one. It's an "if-then" statement saying that if we love everyone, then Christ will claim us before God.
Titus 3:1-8 not only shows that God loves people who are sinners (which they say is not true), but that we should be peaceable and gentle.
The person who doesn't love doesn't know God. 1 John 4:8
Also in that section of scripture is another Biblical statement saying that God loved sinners first, not that he hated them until they came to love him.
Basically, they say that they love God, but they don't do anything that shows that they do.
1 John 3:18
Not only that, but they take the word of God so out of context that they loose one of the two "greatest commandments." To love your neighbor as yourself.
Any one who would twist scripture so much as to make God hate any man is clearly not a Godly ministry.
Not that I make that call, but that I see that call already made in the Scriptures.
@ nonmagic:
ReplyDeleteI'm not so foolish as to think that every thought that pops into my head is from God.
I know it's from God because it lines up with the yard stick he's given me as a standard by which to compare things.
Yeah, I didn't know the name Fred Phelps, but I definitely know the name Westburrow Baptist. I'll know to associate those two names now.
I don't know why you assume that I'm just going to sit down and let him say what he wants or approve of his message. I didn't say that. I said the opposite of that, actually.
I will still comment and post on Ray's site. I'll still disagree with Ray.
I just can't do it here, and I have to do it in a way that is constructive rather than destructive.
I hope they grow up to think for themselves and forget all of the religious foolishness they've been taught.
I do, too. Learning how to do that was a majorly good thing for my spiritual health.
Rob,
ReplyDelete"I'm not so foolish as to think that every thought that pops into my head is from God."
But yet you do think that invisible forces from on high talk to you and direct your life, no?
"I know it's from God because it lines up with the yard stick he's given me as a standard by which to compare things."
You KNOW nothing of the sort. You believe it to be true based on a book of mythology and legend.
Once you, or anyone else who believes in deities of any sort can produce some credible, empirical evidence for the claims, then we can get into the realm of knowing. Until then it is merely an opinion, an unsubstantiated belief, and wishful, magical thinking.
I don't know why you assume that I'm just going to sit down and let him say what he wants or approve of his message. I didn't say that. I said the opposite of that, actually.
I will still comment and post on Ray's site. I'll still disagree with Ray.
I just can't do it here, and I have to do it in a way that is constructive rather than destructive.
What I question is how you arrived at your decision. The basis for your decision, as you stated yourself, is that you feel you were guided to it by the voice of an invisible force. So be it. It would be nice if humans in general realized that what is really going on is that they are making choices in their lives completely of their own volition and take responsibility for those choices based on that. Stop blaming invisible, unproven forces for decisions you full well made yourself.
You don't want to be on this blog anymore. Fine. No one is holding you and I'm not dismayed that you came to the conclusion to leave. But it would be refreshing to see someone with a young, sharp mind just admit the truth that he came to the conclusion he didn't want to be here on his own without the mumbo-jumbo, convoluted thinking that comes with saying 'So God says....'
I said:
"I hope they grow up to think for themselves and forget all of the religious foolishness they've been taught."
And you replied:
"I do, too. Learning how to do that was a majorly good thing for my spiritual health."
And I say in return that my hope for youths, as well as my hope for humanity in general, is that we can reach a day when words that make claims about 'spiritual health', which can not be proven to exist, simply vanish from our vocabulary and are seen as the rubbish of antiquated thinking that has since been replaced with reason, logic, and critical thinking.
For what it's worth, I have no problem with moderate Christians; it's the fundamentalists I have a problem with.
ReplyDeleteWhile I can't agree with your Christianity, you don't seem to have that hateful streak that so many of Ray's echo chamber pride themselves on.
Although I'm a died-in-the-wool atheist, I consider moderate Christians as allies in the war against any and all kinds of fundamentalism.
So, do what you feel is right, and you'll always have my support.
@ nonmagic:
ReplyDeleteBut yet you do think that invisible forces from on high talk to you and direct your life, no?
Yes I do. But the choice to either follow or to not follow that direction remains mine.
Once you, or anyone else who believes in deities of any sort can produce some credible, empirical evidence for the claims, then we can get into the realm of knowing. Until then it is merely an opinion, an unsubstantiated belief, and wishful, magical thinking.
I know that it's true for the same reason that I know the Sahara Desert is filled with orange sand.
I've seen it.
That others have not seen it or do not believe it's sand is orange does not change that.
Having said that, I completely understand why you believe it to be unsubstantiated, wishful, magical thinking. I would, too, if I hadn't experienced it.
You don't want to be on this blog anymore. Fine. No one is holding you and I'm not dismayed that you came to the conclusion to leave. But it would be refreshing to see someone with a young, sharp mind just admit the truth that he came to the conclusion he didn't want to be here on his own without the mumbo-jumbo, convoluted thinking that comes with saying 'So God says....'
I do not hide behind God.
He is my shield, not my scapegoat.
I take full responsibility for following his lead. That he gave me the council that influenced my decision doesn't take the decision away from me.
I added the conversation with God to show that my reasoning wasn't "Holy crap! Terry is telling every one that I'm an Atheist! I gotta get outta here!" I've already stated that I didn't want people to think that Terry was the inspiration to my leaving.
I choose to not be a Raytractor of my own volition. God never chose for me. He's not into that.
And I say in return that my hope for youths, as well as my hope for humanity in general, is that we can reach a day when words that make claims about 'spiritual health', which can not be proven to exist, simply vanish from our vocabulary and are seen as the rubbish of antiquated thinking that has since been replaced with reason, logic, and critical thinking.
Well, I can't say that I hope for that. Instead, I hope for the day when God's people realize that their spiritual health requires critical thinking rather than opposes it.
@ Whateverman:
ReplyDeleteI respect your decision to not use this as a forum for debating. And I appreciate your respect for how I came to my beliefs.
Even if we don't agree, it's cool to see that expression of respect.
Though.... I have to admit.... if I can get you to agree with me I will.
;)
@ nonmagic:
ReplyDeleteI would feed them pancakes for the sheer sake of them being a fellow human being. Even if I weren't a Christian, that's a good thing to do.
I do the spiritual things because of my spiritual beliefs.
Hey Rob, if you're chatting to God anytime soon, could you ask Him where I put my keys; they were on my desk but I can't seem to find them anywhere and I have to go out soon.
ReplyDeleteOh, and if he could end world hunger, war and pestilence and reveal Himself to humanity in a totally unambiguous way so that we can move forward as one united species to a better future, that would be super too.
Cheers!
Rob,
ReplyDelete"But the choice to either follow or to not follow that direction remains mine."
No one said it wasn't.
"I know that it's true for the same reason that I know the Sahara Desert is filled with orange sand.
I've seen it.
That others have not seen it or do not believe it's sand is orange does not change that.
Having said that, I completely understand why you believe it to be unsubstantiated, wishful, magical thinking. I would, too, if I hadn't experienced it."
I've seen and experienced a lot of things I don't have ready explanations for. That doesn't mean a deity had anything to do with it, nor without some empirical evidence for said deity would I ever believe it did.
You and I have discussed some of the experiences you think are evidence. I told you then and I'll tell you again that it's nothing more than speculation and wild imaginings on your part and until you produce verifiable evidence for your deity what you posit as his working in the physical realm is still in the arena of opinion, not knowledge.
"I do not hide behind God.
He is my shield, not my scapegoat.
I take full responsibility for following his lead. That he gave me the council that influenced my decision doesn't take the decision away from me.
I added the conversation with God to show that my reasoning wasn't "Holy crap! Terry is telling every one that I'm an Atheist! I gotta get outta here!" I've already stated that I didn't want people to think that Terry was the inspiration to my leaving.
I choose to not be a Raytractor of my own volition. God never chose for me. He's not into that."
You aren't following anyone's lead but your own and that is the crux of my argument. Period. Without any of the trappings you've put around it.
Just like the example of doing something for another human being simply because they are a fellow human being, without adding noises in the sky to the equation; thinking for oneself and coming to a conclusion which you then follow works equally well without adding noise form the sky to the mix.
People have been doing things and blaming it on invisible forces from above since man first thought of such silly things as deities. I'd like to see humans finally take complete responsibility for their thoughts, their actions and the repercussions of all of it without adding in the noise from the sky factor.
If we only act on what we can reliably show to be true based on evidence, then we can follow that trail of evidence back to where we went wrong if we screw up. If we listen to fairies in the sky we have no way of proving to anyone that that our imaginations might have been horrendously faulty when things turn out wrong and we blame it on a god.
You say you that your god doesn't choose for you. I never said he did. I'm saying that you aren't hearing a voice from the sky, you're hearing yourself and interpreting it as such.
Now you may say what is the harm in that, because this voice has only asked you not to be a part of a specific blog. And if that were the only thing that these supposed voices from on high ever asked someone to do, I might be inclined to agree with you. The reason I do not agree, however, is because people do very harmful things to their fellow man in the name of listening to the voice of a god. I believe that when people can justify everyday mundane actions by saying that they were being guided by a voice for which there is no proof, it is a short leap to supporting the actions of people who say they hear the same voice but do much worse.
In light of that, I have recently changed how I feel about moderate Christianity, or moderate religious beliefs in general.
"Well, I can't say that I hope for that. Instead, I hope for the day when God's people realize that their spiritual health requires critical thinking rather than opposes it."
Rob, if there were critical thinking involved people wouldn't believe such nonsensical things as deities being resurrected and having had to die in the first place to wipe out dirty deeds of humans, floods for which there is no shred of evidence, and a trillion other things that religion, thought of as reality, imposes on the minds of people. Also, the belief that there is such a things as 'God's people' (verses what? Satan's people?) would be thought of as being as equally delusional as believing that there such things as the people that belong to the pink teapot in the sky vs. the people that belong to the blue elephant in my garage.
"I would feed them pancakes for the sheer sake of them being a fellow human being. Even if I weren't a Christian, that's a good thing to do.
I do the spiritual things because of my spiritual beliefs."
It's not a matter of stating why you do each thing, it's a matter of why one would want to take a situation that is perfectly clear to begin with (hungry fellow human = feed hungry fellow human) and cloudy it with unprovable nonsense like religion. Religion does not get you closer to the goal of helping your fellow man with the tangible, physical needs, it only adds noise to the picture.
I understand that you do it because you think you are serving some force in the sky and that you think you have evidence for that invisible force. What puzzles me is that you haven't found your way out of that thought system yet. Maybe you will given time, continued education and life experience. Maybe not.
I think if not, then it is yet another bright mind lost to superstition, dogma, illogical thinking and servitude to a useless construct of man (religion).
With all of that said, I respect you as a person, Rob, but I do not respect your theology.
Rob,
ReplyDeleteSo you ARE in a position to decide what does and does not constitute a godly ministry?
@ nonmagic:
ReplyDeleteIf God ever tells me to do something horrible like that, that has no reasoning behind it, then I hope you are there to correct me. Because it's very very very highly unlikely that it's God.
Critical thinking in Christianity would relate Jesus' sacrifice to that of the animal sacrifices past, and that it's needed because those sacrifices aren't available any more because there's no temple.
It's better because the animal sacrifices were temporary. Jesus' was perfect, and therefore permanent as long as we hold to it.
Not only that, but it would also show that Noah's Flood might have some literary contexts that mean it doesn't have to be literal, and maybe there's no physical evidence of such a flood for a reason. Same with Genesis 1-3.
With all of that said, I respect you as a person, Rob, but I do not respect your theology.
That's fine. You don't have to respect my theology to be cool or intelligent.
You don't even have to respect all of my theology to be Christian.
@ Dave:
ReplyDeleteRob,
So you ARE in a position to decide what does and does not constitute a godly ministry?
I am not in a position to decide that Ray's ministry is not a Godly one. I have seen nothing that shows it isn't Godly, and have seen signs that it is.
I am in a position to say that Fred Phelps' isn't Godly for the reasons I listed above. They have shown how they aren't Godly.
And in either case, I shouldn't judge hypocritically as I had been with Ray's ministry.
Rob,
ReplyDeleteI'm really glad that you are open to this discussion. You have an openness about yourself that allows you to discuss your beliefs with those that vehemently disagree with you without closing up and running away from the evil, mean ol' atheists. Hang on to that. I think it might serve you well.
Now you said:
"If God ever tells me to do something horrible like that, that has no reasoning behind it, then I hope you are there to correct me. Because it's very very very highly unlikely that it's God."
Of course, you most likely knew that I was going to ask how you would distinguish the difference between a voice telling you to do something horrible being the voice of your deity and that voice being a voice that is a sign of a major psychiatric disorder.
If you didn't believe in the validity of any such voices at all then you wouldn't need to know the difference.
I think you are going to respond by telling me that you would differentiate the good voice from the insane by saying that your deity would never tell you to do something that was not loving, so I am going to tell you in advance that if your deity did horrible, unloving things in your bible then how do you know he wouldn't ask you to do the same?
Andrea Yates thought she was doing the bidding of her deity, too. Now the world is 5 dead kids closer to understand the dangers of listening to and doing the bidding of invisible voices in your head.
Critical thinking in Christianity would relate Jesus' sacrifice to that of the animal sacrifices past, and that it's needed because those sacrifices aren't available any more because there's no temple.
It's better because the animal sacrifices were temporary. Jesus' was perfect, and therefore permanent as long as we hold to it.
Rob, Rob, Rob. See, you did it already. You can justify the sacrifice of a human being because you think it is better than the sacrifice of animals.
What you just did there was not critical thinking. What you did was justify the extermination, the murder, of another human being. Rob, that's sad, scary and pathetic.
Not only that, but it would also show that Noah's Flood might have some literary contexts that mean it doesn't have to be literal, and maybe there's no physical evidence of such a flood for a reason. Same with Genesis 1-3.
You are right about one thing. There isn't any physical evidence of the flood for a reason. It's because it's a myth and never happened.
That's fine. You don't have to respect my theology to be cool or intelligent.
Rob, I do not concern myself with degrees of coolness. Intelligence, yes, but not for vanity's sake. All I am concerned with is that you do not hand over your mind to an ideology that is illogical in its best places and down right dangerous and inhuman in it's worst. You are still young enough not to end up as being one of the android mind slaves we see at Ray's on a daily basis. You still have some sparks of autonomy and reasoning left. I'd hate to see you waste it and spread the virus of religion to others, and I have the same concern for all of mankind.
If you respond and I don't get back to you tonight it's because I am very sick with something that is starting to feel like it's bordering on pneumonia. I'm getting ready to go to bed.
Take care, Rob.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRob,
ReplyDeleteEither you're in a position to judge what does and does not constitute a godly ministry or you're not.
If not, then you are not in a position to judge Phelps's ministry ungodly.
If so, then your failure to judge Ray's ministry ungodly based on his moral failings speaks to your own moral character.
Either way, I'd say I'm in a position to judge you a hypocrite. That's disappointing -- I was genuinely growing to like you, Rob.
@ nonmagic:
ReplyDeleteI'm really glad that you are open to this discussion. You have an openness about yourself that allows you to discuss your beliefs with those that vehemently disagree with you without closing up and running away from the evil, mean ol' atheists. Hang on to that. I think it might serve you well.
It has so far. Turns out that when you open yourself up for discussion, often times people will discuss.
Who'da thunkit?
Andrea Yates thought she was doing the bidding of her deity, too. Now the world is 5 dead kids closer to understand the dangers of listening to and doing the bidding of invisible voices in your head.
I doubt that Andrea Yates could justify what she did Biblically. And I'm pretty sure that I could show her Biblically how what she did was wrong.
The things that happened in the OT all happened under a specific contract between YHWH and a specific people group. Unless Andrea Yates is Jewish, then she's not under that contract at all and there's no way she could justify what she did.
And if she is Jewish, then she's only under what remains of that contract, and I can guarantee that what remains doesn't justify what she did in any way.
What you just did there was not critical thinking. What you did was justify the extermination, the murder, of another human being. Rob, that's sad, scary and pathetic.
You're right. It wasn't fair that Jesus died. There's nothing fair about it, and that's not bad.
If the God I believed in were fair, rather than just, then I'd be screwed. Hell is my only option.
However, it's absolutely justified that some one else would want to pay my debts. Maybe not logical on their part, but not unjust.
Jesus sacrifice wasn't better than an animal sacrifice because he was human. It was better than an animal sacrifice because he was perfect, and because he's alive right now.
Which doesn't follow science as we know it. Obviously. But I'm ok with that.
You are right about one thing. There isn't any physical evidence of the flood for a reason. It's because it's a myth and never happened.
That's ok. I don't condemn that belief because of the literary context. However, even if the flood may not be a literal historical account, there's still something in that tale for me to learn, and I believe that's true for other stories in the Bible as well. That's why I don't have a problem right now with the Big Bang, or with Evolution.
That a story is in the Bible doesn't make it a literal historical account. There are things that are just stories that are meant to teach us. Like the Parables. No one thinks that there was a literal historical figure who went around chucking seeds in weird places like the Sower in Jesus' parable. If another story has the literary context of a similar kind of story, why should I view it differently.
Rob, I do not concern myself with degrees of coolness. Intelligence, yes, but not for vanity's sake. All I am concerned with is that you do not hand over your mind to an ideology that is illogical in its best places and down right dangerous and inhuman in it's worst. You are still young enough not to end up as being one of the android mind slaves we see at Ray's on a daily basis. You still have some sparks of autonomy and reasoning left. I'd hate to see you waste it and spread the virus of religion to others, and I have the same concern for all of mankind.
I heard this in a debate between Sam Harris and... Can't remember his name.
He's a Rabbi. Not Christian, but he did pretty awesome at talking about religion in general, referencing Islam and Christianity and talking very little at all about his own faith.
Any way, Bad religion is like Bad science. If science doesn't do what it's supposed to do, then you don't chuck it out the window all together. You do better science.
Similarly, the answer to bad religion is not a lack of religion, but maybe the answer is better religion. One that spreads like a sweet aroma rather than a virus.
I'm looking to get the bug out of the church as much as I can. Maybe spray some Fabreeze into people's minds.
If you respond and I don't get back to you tonight it's because I am very sick with something that is starting to feel like it's bordering on pneumonia. I'm getting ready to go to bed.
I had pneumonia when I was younger. It sucked. Like a Hoover. Mom almost had to take me to a hospital.
Get that crap checked out.
(Wait for it... you know it's coming...)
And, for what it's worth, I will be praying for your health.
;)
@ dave:
ReplyDeleteChrist said "you'll know them by their fruits."
If you're not in a position to see the presence or lack of fruit, then you're not in a position to judge.
The only fruits of Ray's I've seen are a debate between him and Kirk Cameron and the Rational Response Squad, and what I've seen on his blog.
In both places, I disagree with him and even dislike his methods, but what I perceive as his flaws cannot be interpreted as a lack of God nearly so much as a lack of my way of hermeneutics and my way of reasoning.
I Have seen the fruits of Westburrow Baptist Church. It's all over the news when they go out. Their Doctrine is all over their website (which looks like they've had some professional work done on since I checked them out last). It's not even a matter of hermeneutics with them; it's a matter of hate and Love, and the Bible's pretty clear on how we are supposed to be in that area and how God is in that area as I showed above.
It's ok for you to think of me as a hypocrite and cease to like me. Either you call me a hypocrite and dislike me here, or my conscience calls me a hypocrite and I begin to dislike myself.
This cognitive dissonance can't be cured by a change in attitude.
Rob,
ReplyDeleteI repeat: your failure to judge Ray's ministry ungodly based on his moral failings speaks to your own moral character. I most certainly am in a position to judge a person moral or immoral.
Either you don't think that a godly ministry must necessarily be moral, or you think that it's perfectly okay to (for instance) call people names and use dead people to make fun of them. Either way, it's a reflection on yourself.
Nor can you avoid the bad reflection by appealing to your conscience -- history abound with examples of both small failings and terrible atrocities which have been motivated by a misguided conscience.
@ Dave:
ReplyDeleteI repeat: your failure to judge Ray's ministry ungodly based on his moral failings speaks to your own moral character. I most certainly am in a position to judge a person moral or immoral.
Either you don't think that a godly ministry must necessarily be moral, or you think that it's perfectly okay to (for instance) call people names and use dead people to make fun of them. Either way, it's a reflection on yourself.
Ray's moral failings are no worse than my own. I won't judge him for that.
I suppose you're right about it speaking of my own moral failings in that sense.
Godly ministries have mistakes and flaws. Because they're made up of humans.
I stand by what I said. Nothing that I see wrong in Ray's ministry is a result of a lack of God so much as a lack of having my style of hermeneutics and what little knowledge I have.
Ray sees Jesus calling the Pharisees "Snakes," and says "Those atheistic Pharisees are snakes."
I see Jesus only name calling the religious leaders of the day who should have known better than to load people down with needless laws.
And while Ray's comparison of Atheists to the Hurricane victims was pretty tactless, it came from a lack of tact and not a lack of God.
It's ok if you want to compare me to historical figures who have done terrible things. However, it doesn't change my decision or even my opinion of myself if you do.
Rob said,
ReplyDeleteRay's moral failings are no worse than my own. I won't judge him for that.
I suppose you're right about it speaking of my own moral failings in that sense.
Godly ministries have mistakes and flaws. Because they're made up of humans.
Ray's moral failings, and your own, are correctable. In Ray's case, they have been brought to his attention again and again and again and again, so many times and in so many ways that the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that he has made a conscious decision not to correct them.
And while Ray's comparison of Atheists to the Hurricane victims was pretty tactless, it came from a lack of tact and not a lack of God.
Using hurricane victims to make fun of atheists is not only tactless, it's immoral.
I stand by what I said. Nothing that I see wrong in Ray's ministry is a result of a lack of God so much as a lack of having my style of hermeneutics and what little knowledge I have.
A lack of morality entails, to that extent, a lack of Godliness -- or so I've been told.
It's ok if you want to compare me to historical figures who have done terrible things. However, it doesn't change my decision or even my opinion of myself if you do.
It is not that comparison which should cause you to change your decision or your opinion -- rather, it's your own realization that you are consciously choosing to give your tacit approval to an asshole.
If you have not had that realization, tell us what else you need to obtain it, and we will provide. If you have, but choose to proceed regardless, then you are an asshole yourself.
@ Dave:
ReplyDeleteRay's moral failings, and your own, are correctable. In Ray's case, they have been brought to his attention again and again and again and again, so many times and in so many ways that the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that he has made a conscious decision not to correct them.
When presented with a cognitive dissonance, there are only two ways to get rid of it.
1) change the behavior.
B) change the attitude.
Usually, people change their attitudes rather than their behaviors. Human brains like things easy, and it's usually easier that way.
It's like I said, Ray's stuck in a rut, and the way for me to help him out of that rut (or, at the very least, help other Christians avoid that rut) is not to detract from his ministry, regardless of how much I disagree with some of this theology or practice. There's nothing Heretical (yet), just things that I disagree with.
Using hurricane victims to make fun of atheists is not only tactless, it's immoral. A lack of morality entails, to that extent, a lack of Godliness -- or so I've been told.
My mentor once told me to never attribute to malice what could just as easily be attributed to ignorance or stupidity.
I don't think Ray lacks God, just the ability to speak well. He could have just as easily reworded that statement so that it was a tasteful illustration. He just didn't realize that what he said was a douche bag thing to say.
It is not that comparison which should cause you to change your decision or your opinion -- rather, it's your own realization that you are consciously choosing to give your tacit approval to an asshole.
If you have not had that realization, tell us what else you need to obtain it, and we will provide. If you have, but choose to proceed regardless, then you are an asshole yourself.
If you can show me how my participation in Ray's blog, my continuing to disagree with him publicly and discuss why I disagree with him, and my continuing effort to show people that his way of faith isn't the only way to believe in God is equivalent to approval, then I will choose not to proceed.
I'm not approving or agreeing with Ray. I'm disagreeing and even disapproving where necessary in a way that is constructive and not destructive.
It's like I said, Ray's stuck in a rut, and the way for me to help him out of that rut (or, at the very least, help other Christians avoid that rut) is not to detract from his ministry, regardless of how much I disagree with some of this theology or practice.
ReplyDeleteHis "ministry" is an immoral endeavor, and by your decision to consciously refrain from detracting, you are complicit in that immorality.
My mentor once told me to never attribute to malice what could just as easily be attributed to ignorance or stupidity.
I don't think Ray lacks God, just the ability to speak well. He could have just as easily reworded that statement so that it was a tasteful illustration. He just didn't realize that what he said was a douche bag thing to say.
First of all, your mentor was Hanlon, was he?
Second, logically, if you think that Ray doesn't "lack" God then you think he "has" God, and is therefore moral in his endeavors. A person who does an immoral act is, by definition, immoral inasmuch as he has performed that act. Even if one could reasonably maintain that he didn't realize that he was being immoral -- and I don't think you believe that's the case any more than I do -- neither his actions nor your complicity thereby cease to be immoral.
If you can show me how my participation in Ray's blog, my continuing to disagree with him publicly and discuss why I disagree with him, and my continuing effort to show people that his way of faith isn't the only way to believe in God is equivalent to approval, then I will choose not to proceed.
Well that's brilliant, Rob. Shall I also tell you how your ability to breathe, eat, walk and talk is equivalent to having diabetes?
@ Dave:
ReplyDeleteHis "ministry" is an immoral endeavor, and by your decision to consciously refrain from detracting, you are complicit in that immorality.
Again, if you can show me how I have completely refrained from making constructive and positive changes in Ray's ministry, then I will accept this statement as true and rethink my decision.
First of all, your mentor was Hanlon, was he?
No, but I suppose my mentor was at least familiar with that saying.
Second, logically, if you think that Ray doesn't "lack" God then you think he "has" God, and is therefore moral in his endeavors. A person who does an immoral act is, by definition, immoral inasmuch as he has performed that act. Even if one could reasonably maintain that he didn't realize that he was being immoral -- and I don't think you believe that's the case any more than I do -- neither his actions nor your complicity thereby cease to be immoral.
Just because a person has a relationship with God doesn't mean that they will be moral in all of their endeavors.
King David screwed up. So did Sampson and Saul. God is perfect, but having a relationship with him doesn't mean that we will be completely perfect from this day forward any more than me having a relationship with Ben Witherington the Third means that I will be one of the leading New Testament scholars alive.
I would most certainly be influenced by him. I would definitely become more knowledgeable about NT studies. But I wouldn't become exactly like him.
Whoever said that being Christian = being flawless was wrong.
Well that's brilliant, Rob. Shall I also tell you how your ability to breathe, eat, walk and talk is equivalent to having diabetes?
Let me rephrase, then.
If you can show me how my participation in Ray's blog, my continuing to disagree with him publicly and discuss why I disagree with him, and my continuing effort to show people that his way of faith isn't the only way to believe in God is equivalent to me doing nothing, then I'll accept it.
Because I don't see how me changing the way I operate to be more constructive rather than destructive is the same as ceasing operations.
Rob,
ReplyDeleteAgain, if you can show me how I have completely refrained from making constructive and positive changes in Ray's ministry, then I will accept this statement as true and rethink my decision.
I'm happy to stipulate that you've made the attempt, but I don't believe you have anything to show for it.
Just because a person has a relationship with God doesn't mean that they will be moral in all of their endeavors.
Time for a glitch in the Matrix:
Ray's moral failings, and your own, are correctable. In Ray's case, they have been brought to his attention again and again and again and again, so many times and in so many ways that the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that he has made a conscious decision not to correct them.
Let me rephrase, then.
If you can show me how my participation in Ray's blog, my continuing to disagree with him publicly and discuss why I disagree with him, and my continuing effort to show people that his way of faith isn't the only way to believe in God is equivalent to me doing nothing, then I'll accept it.
It's not doing nothing. It's doing too little, and deliberately so.
@ Dave:
ReplyDeleteI'm happy to stipulate that you've made the attempt, but I don't believe you have anything to show for it.
Nor do I have anything to show for my participation here in that respect. Except that I am drawing away from a ministry that, regardless of how I disagree with them, has not yet shown to me any heretical doctrine, or any practices that signal a lack of God.
Time for a glitch in the Matrix:
Ray's moral failings, and your own, are correctable. In Ray's case, they have been brought to his attention again and again and again and again, so many times and in so many ways that the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that he has made a conscious decision not to correct them.
*checks windows* No bricks. Must have been something else... ^_^
It's like I said, Ray's stuck in a rut, and the way for me to help him out of that rut (or, at the very least, help other Christians avoid that rut) is not to detract from his ministry, regardless of how much I disagree with some of his theology or practice. There's nothing Heretical (yet), just things that I disagree with.
It's not doing nothing. It's doing too little, and deliberately so.
If you can show me how my being a raytractor has any positive influence on Ray's ministry (that is, helping it be more effective and logical rather than tearing it down for not being effective and lacking a certain amount of logic), and how I can justify it as not "jumping to conclusions before the Lord returns as to whether or not he is faithful," then I might accept that I'm doing too little.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRob said,
ReplyDeleteNor do I have anything to show for my participation here in that respect. Except that I am drawing away from a ministry that, regardless of how I disagree with them, has not yet shown to me any heretical doctrine, or any practices that signal a lack of God.
Again, I'm pretty sure that immoral actions could be construed as falling into both of those categories.
It's like I said, Ray's stuck in a rut, and the way for me to help him out of that rut (or, at the very least, help other Christians avoid that rut) is not to detract from his ministry, regardless of how much I disagree with some of his theology or practice. There's nothing Heretical (yet), just things that I disagree with.
If this was a question of a disagreement over fact, or doctrine or whatever, you'd have a point -- but it's not. It's a question of moral vs. immoral. Ray is immoral, his immorality is correctable, and has been brought to his attention again and again and again.
If you can show me how my being a raytractor has any positive influence on Ray's ministry (that is, helping it be more effective and logical rather than tearing it down for not being effective and lacking a certain amount of logic), and how I can justify it as not "jumping to conclusions before the Lord returns as to whether or not he is faithful," then I might accept that I'm doing too little.
I think it's well-established that, Christian or not, there just ain't no gettin' through to that guy. As for getting through to his followers, I can't be bothered to go through the blog archives, find examples of Ray-bots listening to what you have to say, and arguing the genuineness of those influences, all the while carrying on a conversation about whether such an action can be justified with respect to your existing theology, the end result of all of which would be that you "might" accept my statement. I like you, Rob, but not that much.
But yet again, this is not the issue. The issue is whether or not you are going to be complicit in his immoral actions.
@ dave:
ReplyDeleteAgain, I'm pretty sure that immoral actions could be construed as falling into both of those categories.
How so?
If this was a question of a disagreement over fact, or doctrine or whatever, you'd have a point -- but it's not. It's a question of moral vs. immoral. Ray is immoral, his immorality is correctable, and has been brought to his attention again and again and again.
What do you see as immoral?
Heh. I like you, Rob,
sweet.
but not enough to go through the archives of this blog and Ray's blog, find all the examples of what influence you've had over Ray's followers based on what they've said, and argue over the genuineness of the influence in each of those examples, all the while carrying on a discussion about whether you are able to justify your complicity in Ray's immoral acts within the framework of your existing theology,
dang.
particularly when the only result of all of this is that you "might" accept my statement. You'll either do the moral thing or you won't.
I believe that I am in this Dave.
Rob said,
ReplyDeleteHow so?
Well I don't claim to be an expert on this, but I'm pretty sure that, in Christian theology, God commands people to be moral. No?
What do you see as immoral?
You mean other than the dishonesty and the insults? Well, y'know, you got me there . . .
I believe that I am in this Dave.
From the above, I can see how you might believe that, but that then speaks to a problem with your own morality. You're giving a personal go-ahead to an immoral endeavor. Granted that neither your go-ahead nor your stop-right-there would mean much to Ray, but (a) it's your own action that counts, and (b) Ray's followers are more akin to listen to you than to us.
@ Dave:
ReplyDeleteWell I don't claim to be an expert on this, but I'm pretty sure that, in Christian theology, God commands people to be moral. No?
True. God does ask that of us.
However, if a believer does something immoral, does that mean that they are one of Ray's "False converts," or a pretender?
Or does it mean that even followers of Christ screw up?
You mean other than the dishonesty and the insults? Well, y'know, you got me there . . .
Again, are the insults a lack of God, or a lack of tact?
I see people of God all the time in the Bible making insults. I wouldn't agree that Ray's insults are justified like theirs were, but I can't say that a person making insults is a sign that they haven't been following God.
And is Ray being dishonest, or does he actually believe that the things that he teaches are true, and ignore scientific evidences and such because he actually believes that they are lies?
Proclaiming a thing as truth that you actually believe to be truth isn't dishonesty. It could be ignorant. It could be ignorant by choice, or it could be ignorant by conditioning. But it's not dishonesty.
From the above, I can see how you might believe that, but that then speaks to a problem with your own morality. You're giving a personal go-ahead to an immoral endeavor. Granted that neither your go-ahead nor your stop-right-there would mean much to Ray, but (a) it's your own action that counts, and (b) Ray's followers are more akin to listen to you than to us.
You keep saying that, but have yet to show me how I am acting in a way that doesn't give Ray's followers something to listen to and how my actions are working against that end.
I simply choose to reach that end in a constructive manner, rather than a destructive one.