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Tuesday, September 30, 2008

Nervous? No. Frightened of people believing in ridiculous, fairy tale guff...? Yes.

Raymond wants to know if I am getting nervous because of the stock market crashes - cos Ray thinks he is about to be beamed up to the magic fairy palace in the sky...

The thing that DOES make me nervous is that the President who is presiding over this cluster fuck ALSO believes that he will be beamed up with Ray.

Raymond and George (now there is a sitcom) believe that the will fly to the heavens when Jesus blows his trumpet. Raymond and George think that they may hear that trumpet sometime soon - which is sad for them and sadder for us.

Raymond and George believe in the rapture.

*That* is scary.

57 comments:

  1. The crash was caused because the little kids didn't get the money they demanded from mommy. The same little kids that said mommy was interfering with their work. So now they are throwing their toys and having a tantrum. Give it some time and the market will go back up.

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  2. The new republican mantra:

    PRIVATIZE PROFITS!

    SOCIALIZE LOSSES!

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  3. Ray,

    Are you getting nervous yet? I mean, its been over 2,000 years and your magic friend hasn't popped out of the clouds to take you to your warm fuzzy place in the sky.

    Imagine, Ray, if the bible is just the thoughts and words of nomadic peoples of ancient times and you've wasted the only life you ever had taking it seriously.

    Imagine, Ray, how many time you can pull Pascal's Wager out of your ass as an excuse for a post.

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  4. Any Christian that invokes Pascal's wager is a closet agnostic.

    Think about it.

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  5. I'm confused. This is the third time in almost as many days where Ray and his brand of christians seem to be insinuating that god caused the financial crisis. Why? He can supposedly do ANYTHING, and yet instead of actually helping people in his awesome love and mercy. he chooses to just fuck around with our money. Then Ray and his cronies claim victory? I picture Ray watching the financial markets and doing his best Mr. Burns impersonation excellant.

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  6. What will happen if the end comes and Jesus doesn't show up? Will they finally give up and admit he isn't coming or will they claim that the bad times are just a sign and he'll be here any minute?

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  7. I just posted an explanation to Ray of why the economy is not collapsing. As scary as it is, it appears that he knows as little about economics as he does about science.

    The question is, once it is clear that the economy is not collapsing will he admit that the biblical prophecy is not true?

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  8. I have grave news for you all that I am saddened that I must report. This morning I went down to the ocean for a walk. When I got the the shore, the water was approaching the land! We must hurry and head for the hills to prepare for the incoming flood waters.

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  9. That's the nature of blind faith: physical reality (past or present) is not a factor in deciding what to believe in.

    Really, I have no problem with the concept of the rapture, and none in knowing that people desperately believe in it. What bothers me is what they do, here, on this plane of existence - based on those beliefs.

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  10. Maybe I was a little bit hasty with my previous post. I went back to the ocean to check the water levels. Now the water is receding! Save all the water you can! If things keep happening at this rate we won't have any to go around. Lock it away in air-tight bottles!

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  11. Was there a rapture in 1929 that no one told me about?
    Ray and his clones are blind to the fact that they vote for the bastards claiming government is the problem and once they're elected they prove it.

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  12. Of course there is no way I can prove it, bu tI have always felt that George W's "christianity" is just a persona he acquired to win elections.

    I have also found it strange that any President of the US could really be a true follower of Christ when they have to send out soldiers to kill enemies.

    There is an inherent falseness about that. There is also no question that all politicians lie. Even if they feel that it is for the eventual good of the electorate, they lie - they have to sometimes for national security reasons, but nevertheless, they lie.

    I may be wrong, or I may just be lying.

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  13. What will happen when the end comes and Jesus doesn't show up? If society collapses, if government fails, it'll will be easier to have a Bible based theocracy, to scare people into it. And the first thing they'll do is look for reasons why Jesus didn't return. And who do you think will get the blame? The SINNERS! The Atheists, the Queers and Dykes, the Heathens, the false converts, the evilutionists; you know, the usual suspects.

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  14. There is no prophecy in the Bible that says the economy of the US is a sign of end times. It is speculation, one scenario, based on the fact that the US is not mentioned concerning end time events.

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  15. cynthia,

    Did I read at Ray's you think we are in the end of days? Are you pre-trib, post-trib or any trib? Can you elaborate?

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  16. @ craig,

    Yes, I am pre-trib. I'm not sure what you want me to elaborate on. Let me know and I will.

    Thanks.

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  17. In other news, Heaven's Stock Exchanged dropped 4.5 percent, with heavy hit on soul commodities which were down 7 percent (an all time low) , In hell, stocks rallied.

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  18. cynthia,

    Is there a specific event or sign that leads you to conclude this? Do you think Obama is the anti-christ?

    Pre-trib, huh. When I see a bunch of folks disappear, I know I'll be in for the best 7 years of my life. I'm gonna be Mad Max.

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  19. Thanks for your input, Cynthia.

    A lot of us Raytractors get confused by what Ray says sometimes, so it's nice someone like you can explain this to us.

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  20. Craig said...
    cynthia,

    Is there a specific event or sign that leads you to conclude this?

    Not a specific event or sign, other than in the Bible, God always takes His people out before He passes His judgements - The flood, the Exodus, just to name a few well known events.



    Do you think Obama is the anti-christ?

    No I do not think he is. I believe the anti-christ will be from Europe. Someone I read mentioned Italy, because the Roman Empire is to be revived at some point, obviously future. Others are of the opinion he will be middle eastern. Whoever he is, he will seemingly have all the answers to the world-wide troubles prevailing at that time. People will listen to him because he will be very charismatic and he will make a 7 yr. pact of peace, with Israel, but he wont keep it.

    That was probably more than you wanted me to say.




    Pre-trib, huh. When I see a bunch of folks disappear, I know I'll be in for the best 7 years of my life. I'm gonna be Mad Max.


    Hmm. I don't think you'll get to fulfill that role. :)

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  21. @ kaitlyn,

    You're welcome.

    I didn't intend to post at Ray's again but when I saw the subject and what "he" lead out with, it just riled me, so I had to speak my mind. Actually, I have my doubts that it's Ray doing the posting there.

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  22. cynthia said...

    That was probably more than you wanted me to say.

    No, not at all. I'm interested. In your post at Ray's you said we're in the last minutes. I thought maybe there was something that made you think it was imminent.

    The Obama thing was in reference to the sleazy emails going around.

    You said....

    Hmm. I don't think you'll get to fulfill that role. :)

    Bummer.

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  23. Craig,

    The reason I said we are in the last minutes is because prophetic events are taking place very fast and God said the generation that sees Israel become a nation will be the generation that sees the end.

    Since Israel became a nation in 1948, I believe that generation includes me, but no one is for certain how many years constitute a generation.

    But in my studies of what is taking place in the Middle East and end time events, I do believe we are most likely right there at the last minutes.

    There are a few things I keep up with in the news relating to some prophetic events and they are the
    rebuilding of Babylon, the Israeli army, dividing the land of Israel, the wealth of Israel, and what the arab nations around Israel are up to.

    Are you aware that a branch of NATO is funding the rebuilding of Babylon? I don't have the specifics on it here at work so if you ask about that, it's not on the tip of my tongue or even a recent memory.

    Also, for the United States to not be mentioned in the end times as a mighty nation would mean something happened to her. That's why the collapse of the economy scenario mentioned before. But that collapse could be caused by the fact that all the Christians are gone. That many people missing would have to have a huge effect on any nation/economy.

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  24. craig,

    I forgot to mention why I keep up with the rebuilding of Babylon and the wealth and military of Israel.

    The Bible predicts Babylon will be rebuilt and Israel will become one of the wealthiest, if not the wealthiest nations in the world in the end days and their army will not be able to be defeated.

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  25. I didn't intend to post at Ray's again but when I saw the subject and what "he" lead out with, it just riled me, so I had to speak my mind

    This happens to me daily, so I'm joining get_education in a month-long boycott of Ray's site.

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  26. whateverman,

    I wont be missed there any more than I'd be missed here. I just didn't intend to waste time there anymore. I haven't even been back to see if anyone there said anything about my post.

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  27. Freed:

         Actually, it is the generation that saw Jesus the first time around that was supposed to see his return. Christians just reinterpret it. Matthew, Chapter 17 states there were some then present who would not taste death until Jesus made his return. In some future time, it may be interpreted as from when Israel consumes most of Asia. To me, it looks like a game of "we never have to admit that the prediction failed."

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  28. The best way of spinning this generation shall not pass, and some standing here who shall nottaste of death, is the myth of the Wandering Jew. That one cracks me up. A thousand years from now, if we've moved out into the rest of the solar system, if we move on to other star systems, they'll still be waiting, and still spinning it.

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  29. Pvblivs said...
    Freed:

    Actually, it is the generation that saw Jesus the first time around that was supposed to see his return. Christians just reinterpret it. Matthew, Chapter 17 states there were some then present who would not taste death until Jesus made his return. In some future time, it may be interpreted as from when Israel consumes most of Asia. To me, it looks like a game of "we never have to admit that the prediction failed."



    I didn't find anything like that in Matt. 17 but in Matthew 24:34 it says: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."


    Commentary concerning "this generation":

    the word generation in Verse 34, foretells that the Jewish race shall never cease to exist as a distinct people, so long as this world shall endure.


    And they haven't. They were again a nation in 1948.

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  30. cynthia,

    Sorry, had to actually do some work. I've heard the bit about Babylon being rebuilt before. I'll have to look into it but I seem to recall Sadam pissing off archeologists by building something over the site back in the 80's. He dreamed up some connection he had to Nebbakaneezer (sp).

    Got to run. Needless to say I don't share your eschatology but I do find it interesting. Hope to pick up this discussion again soon.

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  31. Craig,

    That's ok to not share my eschatology. Not all Christians share it either.

    We can discuss this subject any time, as It's most interesting to me.

    I said earlier:
    Are you aware that a branch of NATO is funding the rebuilding of Babylon?

    I meant to say UNESCO is funding the rebuilding, not NATO.
    Sorry about that...the memory's going. It was a front page story reported in the New York Times in April, 2006.

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  32. cynthia,

    I still haven't looked at the Babylon stuff but I did look at your blog. I'm curious how you view the future or if your studies of endtime prophesy affects your daily life. I would really like to understand how someone who thinks the world is ending soon deals with it. I don't want to judge. Thanks

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  33. Craig,

    I can't tell you how many times I've begun an answer to you and deleted the words. This is really hard to put into words.

    As a Christian the thought of the world ending soon is something I very much look forward to because I know that what's next is better. The only way it affects me in a bad/sad way is when I think about the unsaved.

    The world situation is not something I am too worried about, not only because I believe God's in control of it all, but because He's told us what's coming. Since it's no secret what's going to happen in future events, no surprises, there's no reason to worry. I can honestly say I have no fear or worries of what's coming soon.

    When I say soon that is no indication that I have a date in mind. It could be another 50 years from now...but I really don't think so. I personally don't know of any Christian that isn't ready and rarin' to go now,
    no matter their age.

    My pastor refers to it as a choosing between "the sweet bye and bye or the nasty now and now". I agree with him.

    I don't live and make plans as if I wont be here next week. We all live normal every day lives, but with the hope of the life to come.

    I hope I've addressed your curiosity. This was just really harder to explain than I thought because I was trying to keep it short and to the point but kept wanting to write and write and write.

    You should have seen my first draft! It was all over the place. :)

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  34. cynthia,

    Thank you for your time and honesty. I hope you don't think you're just a curiousity to me. Your a very nice person, willing to engage with the "enemy" in an open and authentic way. I woundn't try to change your mind and I appreciate it that you don't come here to evangalize. Here is my big concern.

    You said...

    As a Christian the thought of the world ending soon is something I very much look forward to because I know that what's next is better.

    Let's say you were running for vice pres. and your running mate is 72 yrs. old with a history of melanoma. I have reason to think you hold those beliefs. It becomes painfully apparent you have no qualifications to hold the most powerful office in the world but there's a group of people who will vote for you solely on the basis of your religious views. That scares the shit out of me.

    Thanks again.

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  35. Craig,

    From your last paragraph, I truly understand what you are saying.

    I feel the same way about the other candidate because of the role he will play in the big picture of prophecy. I'm not scared for myself, but for those that will be here when I'm gone.

    A Christian will vote for a Christian because the values are the same and as long as we have even a moderately Christian president, especially a praying one, then we feel secure in God's blessing the US for a while longer.

    When or if the unbelieving president takes office, you can know for sure he will take us in the direction of God taking his favor from us as a nation. This is what a Christian sees.

    You, or any unbeliever would not understand this, but I believe a Christian voting for a Christian believes they have the welfare of our nation in mind.

    I'm not at all political and can't talk about political issues per se, but looking at the big picture and our future, I rather have the older Christian leading me. It has nothing to do with policies, etc.

    Everything I just said is my opinion only. I've not asked another Christian why they vote the way they do.

    I would like to say, age, and health have nothing to do with qualifications. The young, healthy man may have no common sense.

    Anyway, time will be the teller.

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  36. Craig,

    I just want to state that the older candidate's issues do matter. It came across as if I think they don't.

    I was answering you in a purely
    "big picture" way...if that's a description.

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  37. cynthia,

    These were the same reasons people gave for voting for Dubya. Dragging our country into the crapper is George's will, not god's.

    I'm at a loss here. I like you but I hope there's not too many out there like you.

    Later

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  38. Craig,

    You said "...I hope there's not too many out there like you."


    As I told you, I'm not political, but maybe, in all fairness, you should explain why I scare you and in a nutshell, why you don't like dubya.

    I'd really like to understand this, if you have the time.

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  39. I've tried to type up a response to this Freed - Craig discussion several times, and have scrapped them all.

    I'm dismayed that the religion of our President is more important than whether he's capable of handling the position or not. Dismayed, but not overly surprised.

    The problem, Freed, is that your methodology is just as usable by people of other religions. And if everyone started making decisions in this way, we would not be electing someone based on how qualified he/she is for the position.

    To be clear, this issue is about more than just politics; any time you choose between leaders based on whether he's in the same little group you are, you dilute the possibility of someone being capable REGARDLESS of which club he belongs to.

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  40. An atheist president will not somehow damn all Christians in the eyes of God.

    A Christian president does not necessarily have better leadership skills.

    A Jewish president is not necessarily best suited to handle international politics.

    A Muslim president doesn't necessarily understand immigration issues better.

    Religion has nothing to do with politics. It's like choosing a car insurance agent based on how well they're dressed.

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  41. whateverman,

    I admitted I'm not political, and it took me forever to answer Craig because of this. I am probably considered naive concerning policies. I was trying to stick to the "christian thinking" and not political policies in my answer. I know what was in my head but it just wouldn't translate to my finger. Anyway, I failed.

    Thanks for your input. At least I can see from you how my reply stacks up against the question he asked me.

    I agree with your last post:

    Whateverman said...
    An atheist president will not somehow damn all Christians in the eyes of God.

    My thought was he would not see the biblical warnings concerning some decisions he and congress might possibly make, such as dividing Israel or giving up land to Palestine.

    A Christian president does not necessarily have better leadership skills.

    This is true, but in my opinion, the older candidate we are talking about is the better choice, and I am entitled to vote my choice.


    A Jewish president is not necessarily best suited to handle international politics.

    That stands to reason, especially if he has no experience in it.


    A Muslim president doesn't necessarily understand immigration issues better.

    Believe me, I know this all too well.


    Religion has nothing to do with politics.


    No, but what you know as a Christian determines how you vote.

    Your last statement in your first post is true. If A is Christian and B is not, but B is, in my own opinion, the more capable, then I would vote for B.

    All that just to say - I agree with you whateverman.

    Maybe I just didn't have it clear in my head what Craig wanted from me. Oh well, can't unring the bell.

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  42. Freed said: Your last statement in your first post is true. If A is Christian and B is not, but B is, in my own opinion, the more capable, then I would vote for B.

    Then IMHO that is all that could or should ever be asked of you - regardless of which one you end up choosing.

    Thanks Freed

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  43. cynthia said...

    As I told you, I'm not political, but maybe, in all fairness, you should explain why I scare you and in a nutshell, why you don't like dubya.

    I'd really like to understand this, if you have the time.

    cynthia,

    You, cynthia, don't scare me. Your worldview regarding the inevitable and, relatively, imminent end of days held by someone who could possibly be leader of the free world does. The fact that Sarah Palin has lied repeatedly even after her lies have been debunked. The evidence that she used her position to settle personal vendettas and reward friends with jobs they are unqualified to hold. Her being sheltered from answering questions from the press and citizens, although now it's become apparent why. She's not up to the task. All of these things are ignored by conservative christians because she's one of you.

    As for McCain, he showed physical courage at one time in his life and I have a ton of respect for that. Now he has squandered any integrity he had to win this election. He is pandering to the religious right he once called agents of intolerance. He has smeared Obama as bad and falsely as Bush smeared him in 2000. He has changed his position on tax cuts, immigration, Afghanistan, torture, veterans benefits and more to appease the base. He has lined up with Bush's disastrous policies. Yet, fundies don't care.

    That brings me to Bush. He has gotten everything he asked for in the last 7 1/2 years and here we are. Record deficits, record debt, record trade deficit, record debt held by foreign countries, job losses, widest gap in wealth since the gilded age, two failing wars sucking $12 billion a month, torture, warrantless spying on Americans, subverting science, increased dependence on foreign oil, reduction in alt. energy and an economy on the verge of collapse. And that's just for starters. No, I don't like Bush and I hate what he's done to my country. Yet, 26% think he's AOK.

    Of course you have the right to vote how you want and use whatever criteria you want. Do you know of Pascals' Wager? It's been explained here and at Ray's many times. I have a wager for you. What if you're wrong? The consequences are real and you can see them now. Our future and the future of our kids and the next generations are at stake. If the world doesn't end soon we're stuck with what we deserve if we vote on personalities and religious affiliation. I hope you spend a little time looking into what's going on and what the candidates plans for dealing with our issues are.

    Sorry if I rambled and I hope this helps.

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  44. Craig,

    I was discussing this with office staff today and here's what I got back:

    Every president has to correct the problems the previous president made.

    The economic crisis is actually the fault of President Clinton. He pushed for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to make the subprime loans to people that could not really afford them. It is now catching up to us and Bush is getting all of the blame when in actuality Clinton (our impeached president) started this mess. He got ACORN involved and forced people to make subprime loans. ACORN was screaming discrimination.
    Just like the savings and loan bailout in the 80's was the fault of the previous administration not Reagan's. The previous admin was Carter. Another democrat.
    Encourage them to watch Glenn Beck. IF you aren't a republican you will be after watching him.
    - submitted to Cynthia from Rhonda

    That was sent to me in an email when I asked the secretary to write down everything we discussed.

    So, I guess I need to search for the truth myself, right?

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  45. craig,

    I just read a post by Mark Laine at AC and he talks the same about Obama and party as you do about McCain and party.

    Not confusing at all. :/

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  46. I just read a post by Mark Laine at AC and he talks the same about Obama and party as you do about McCain and party.

    There's so much misinformation portrayed as wisdom going around. I'm not expert enough to peel the fact from the fantasy (on either side of the political fence)

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  47. Here I come to save the day.

    I'm no expert either but I'll take a shot at it. I don't let Clinton off the hook, he signed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act which let financial institutions mingle investment, commercial lending and insurance. It led to less transparency and less regulation. Sub-prime loans were bundled and sold as securities. These securities were backed by phony insurance ratings and turned a profit each time they were sold.

    It was assumed housing values would continue to rise. When mortgage brokers saw how much money was to be made they created vehicles to give mortgages with no income, no job and no assets. After all, the banks or whoever was holding the paper would be on the hook if the loan went into default.

    Remember it was Bush who was pushing the ownership society and he was gung-ho on sub-primes. So was Alan Greenspan. So yes, Clinton deserves some blame but it is the anti regulation Republicans and greedy investors who really set the table for this collapse. If someone can explain this better, please help.

    I've seen Glen Beck. Still a Democrat.

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  48. I'm just really beginning to love you whateverman. You are just so darned level headed.

    Thanks! I always appreciate your input.

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  49. yesterday I said...

    Freed said...
    whateverman,

    I wont be missed there any more than I'd be missed here. I just didn't intend to waste time there anymore. I haven't even been back to see if anyone there said anything about my post.


    ==========

    I went back and sure enough I got blasted. Twice. Seems I should be looking into getting mental help.

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  50. cynthia said,

    I'm just really beginning to love you whateverman. You are just so darned level headed.

    What, mine is slightly askew?

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  51. Oh no craig, I love you too.

    After all, you saved the day!!

    :)

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  52. You are both just so sincere and pleasant to post with.

    I really enjoyed it and I'm beginning to feel that my work life is interfering with my blogging life!!

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  53. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  54. Here I go again.

    The president of our bank here is also the treasurer of our church. He's about 30 years old and a self-made millionaire - from the stock market, even though his family practically owns this town.

    I say all that just so you would know why everyone runs to him with financial questions, etc.

    When he was in the office today, everyone starts yammering at him about what he thinks about their retirement investments, what he thinks about a bail out, etc.

    He believes if a bailout was never mentioned everything would have been ok. Things would go down and then back up again, but now that it has been mentioned they will have no choice but to do a bail out.

    Someone asked him if he thought stocks would continue to go down and he said yes, for a little while and would probably recover. I didn't like the word probably because I want it to recover.

    The pastor said "if it continues to go down then I'll owe them money"...and of course we all laughed. Everyone was commenting on their retirement woes.

    The purpose of my telling this little story is to say that we (believers) do have concerns about our tomorrows, even though we believe God is sovereign. We are not at all unconcerned.

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  55. cynthia said...

    You are both just so sincere and pleasant to post with.

    Right back at you. Truth be told, I have to wear reading glasses in my old age and they all seem to sit crooked. Maybe my head is out of level.

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  56. Thanks for the kind words, Freed.

    Truth be told, I gravitate to controversy and debate, but trying to talk with Ray's clique is akin to bashing your head against a wall - after a bit, it becomes completely pointless (and slightly painful - I have a thick skull).

    Still, I know I'll eventually go back and try again. But for a while, I'm gonna stay here and see what comes out of it. The Raytractors are a good mix of theist/atheist folks who are fun and value level-headedness.

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