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Friday, September 19, 2008



Also funny how it always seems to mysteriously agree with the thoughts, prejudices, and biases of the person doing the talking.
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69 comments:

  1. WhatevermanSeptember 19, 2008 at 7:27 PM

    Those who claim to understand the universe and their place in it through faith have a single, unassailable answer for every conundrum they create:

    God did it

    I mean, all you have to do is read Ray's blog, and look carefully at what both sides are doing. Ray's fans claim God is the answer for every question, and that's the essence of their faith. Ray's detractors keep using logic to assail the answers said fans come up with.

    It's like using squirt guns to take down a brick wall; it's simply not going to happen.

    The way to take down the wall isn't to bang your head against it; you need to erode the foundation.

    Personally, I think Kaitlyn's approach, whether sincere or not, is an excellent one. Get them to trust you, and once you're assumed to have "an open mind", that's when you start with the gentle questioning; phrased as if you're talking about your own problems, rather than assailing their faith.

    Every time you attack their faith, they're simply going to ignore what you're saying. And pretend that their "strength" comes from their belief.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Debunkey MonkeySeptember 19, 2008 at 7:47 PM

    Just to be clear, my approach is to have a civil and fun approach to discussing theology, not to convert Christians to atheism.

    ReplyDelete
  3. MaragonSeptember 19, 2008 at 7:52 PM

    I don't care whether people are christian or not. I care whether they understand science.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Debunkey MonkeySeptember 19, 2008 at 8:07 PM

    Bingo with Maragon.

    I'm actually talking to people right now about converting to evangelical Christianity.

    I figure it's worth a shot. I'm a little scared, but I know no matter what, I'll become a better person and learn something new.

    ReplyDelete
  5. MaragonSeptember 19, 2008 at 8:18 PM

    Kaitlyn,

    I don't know how you could convert to evangelical christianity. Are you suggesting that you can somehow force yourself to believe in something you know to be false?

    ReplyDelete
  6. Benjamin FranklinSeptember 19, 2008 at 8:19 PM

    Kaitlyn-

    Accepting evanglical Christianity requires accepting the inerrancy of the Bible.

    Can you really convince yourself that there was a global flood 4,500 years ago whith only Noah, 7 other people and a boat load of animals surviving?

    ReplyDelete
  7. WhatevermanSeptember 19, 2008 at 8:23 PM

    I didn't mean to imply that you were trying to convert anyone, Kaitlyn. Regardless of what you're trying to do, it appears (imho) that you're doing your best to engage them.

    If you want to actually discuss with these people (and not just endlessly bang your head against the wall), slow engagement is the way to go

    ReplyDelete
  8. mjarsulicSeptember 19, 2008 at 8:27 PM

    I never thought that a YEC position was a must to be an evangelical Christian. I always thought some were progressive creationists or believed in theistic evolution. I may be wrong though.

    I do know however that evangelical scholars on the left do not all accept the bible as being inerrant. Some of them even participate in biblical criticism. However, I don't think any will utilize higher criticism and still believe stuff like Moses wrote the Pentateuch.

    ReplyDelete
  9. WhatevermanSeptember 19, 2008 at 8:32 PM

    I never thought that a YEC position was a must to be an evangelical Christian. I always thought some were progressive creationists or believed in theistic evolution. I may be wrong though.

    I simply dont understand enough about the demographics of their belief system to suggest another interpretation. To be completely honest, I'm doing my best to avoid stereotyping beliefs based on the insanity I read here and in other fundamentalist forums.

    ReplyDelete
  10. mjarsulicSeptember 19, 2008 at 8:41 PM

    whateverman,

    The liberal evangelical churches are impossible to stereotype. I go to various churches to observe at times and there is very little consistency in their beliefs. The conservative churches are a lot more consistent with their beliefs. Some are more extreme than others. One of my interests right now is trying to determine which end of the spectrum has more reasonable beliefs. From my observations, I'm actually think the conservative stance is a lot more reasonable, which is not what I expected.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Daddy StegosaurusSeptember 19, 2008 at 9:07 PM

    I think the conservatives are more consistent too. That is to be expected if they take a literal translation of the same book though.

    The liberals are annoying. You can't argue with them because they won't admit to any knowledge.
    "Maybe god is love."
    "Maybe God did use evolution."
    "Maybe Jesus was just a man, but his teachings are still good."
    Where do they get that? Just admit that believing in something makes you feel good and that Christianity was the first thing you came across.

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  12. AnonymousSeptember 19, 2008 at 9:21 PM

    Kaitlyn,

    I sincerely think you are not that well if you think "converting to evangelical Christianity" is worth a shot.

    You asked previously about whether you would have a soul because you were "engineered," meaning you were conceived outside of your mom, in a test tube (meaning they mixed the egg and sperm in a tube then inserted the embryo--you--into your mom's matrix?) Were you sincere? If so, let me first tell you that you wre not engineered. The sperm and egg were mixed outside your mom, but you are otherwise quite the natural my lady. There are no "engineered" babies ... yet. Even if the procedure was not this one precisely, still both the egg and sperm were natural ones Kaitlyn. Maybe frozen, maybe from donors, maybe whatever, but natural.

    Now, that aside, there is no reason to believe there is anything such as a soul. But, if there were, if there was a just and merciful God, don't you think it would know that you are a living, thinking, conscious person who also deserves a soul? I mean, if this is your excuse for trying that shit out, please first use your brain. If you so want to believe in God, try something more healthy and be rational.

    Best and take care,
    G.E.

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  13. AnonymousSeptember 19, 2008 at 9:30 PM

    Kaitlyn,

    Did you get the contact information for your baptiser in San Francisco?

    please send me pictures if you have them taken. So glad to hear you are coming over to the side of God. God Bless Your Soul !!!

    I will pray for you! Please help with praying for the atheists on this blog site. Ok? Thanks Sis!

    In His Love,
    Terry Burton

    ReplyDelete
  14. AnonymousSeptember 19, 2008 at 9:38 PM

    @ Kaitlyn, "I'm actually talking to people right now about converting to evangelical Christianity."

    You are such a blessing! First it was Rex Mundance, now it is you!
    Rex saw the 'light' and he is on fire for the Lord. AMEN!

    The blessings just keep coming. Hopefully Maragon, Whateverman, Charles, Rufus, and all the rest will follow your example.

    Thank you for coming to me! It was so sweet, I hardly could believe it, but now I KNOW ITS TRUE!!!

    Hallelujah! I Rejoice as the saints in heaven are rejoicing!

    Love you sister! Jesus Loves you even more. He gave His Life for you on the cross, so you can be with Him throughout eternity!

    Always turn to Him when you feel satan tugging at you. He will try his best, to tear you away from your faith in Christ.

    HUGz! Kaitlyn

    In His Love,
    Terry Burton

    ReplyDelete
  15. WhatevermanSeptember 19, 2008 at 9:45 PM

    Thank you for coming to me! It was so sweet, I hardly could believe it, but now I KNOW ITS TRUE!!!

    So I guess she's not a white witch, you nut bag...

    ReplyDelete
  16. nonmagicSeptember 19, 2008 at 9:45 PM

    Whateverman,

    With all due respect, I'm not going to be anything different than what I really am in order to get people to trust me so that I can erode their foundation.

    To do so seems fake and manipulative to me, and I'm not into it.

    I believe that people are either going to think for themselves or they aren't. It'd be great if they did and I'd love to see it happen, but I'm not going to act any different than I really, truly am in order to accomplish the task.

    ReplyDelete
  17. AnonymousSeptember 19, 2008 at 9:51 PM

    Kaitlyn, IRT: your Soul

    Don't listen to that 'garbage' about not having a soul. There are too many references throughout history about a human soul. satan wants it, Jesus will save it!

    satan tried his best to get the Son of God to bow down before him, and he failed. Jesus defeated him on the cross! He paid the price and now we are saved by the grace of God!

    Jesus lives, he defeated Death!

    You know better than I that evil rewards evil with great evil! Look what happened to Judas, 13th apostle!

    You got one chance to get away from the dark craft.

    I understand it feels good to do the things you do, but the source is evil. He will get you at death!

    Turn away from the 'craft', never go back!!! Your soul is too precioius sister. Too precious!

    Love you sister! Praying for you.

    THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD

    There are forces of evil and good in this sinful world. Those forces have been at war since the dawn of time. You know that from your experience. right? Don't let the forces of darkness deceive you!

    Jesus Christ is the 'light' of the world, the Lamb of God, Son of Man, Prince of Peace, and the Savior of the World.

    He is Good and Holy. He is the complete opposite of satan.

    ReplyDelete
  18. AnonymousSeptember 19, 2008 at 9:52 PM

    @Whateverman ( with my personal pic )

    She was in the craft, now she is turning away from it. Shows how much you know! I was right Clone!

    ReplyDelete
  19. AnonymousSeptember 19, 2008 at 9:54 PM

    @nomajic,

    "I believe that people are either going to think for themselves or they aren't. It'd be great if they did and I'd love to see it happen, but I'm not going to act any different than I really, truly am in order to accomplish the task."

    I agree! Very nice post! :)

    ReplyDelete
  20. WhatevermanSeptember 19, 2008 at 9:55 PM

    nonmagic said: With all due respect, I'm not going to be anything different than what I really am in order to get people to trust me so that I can erode their foundation.

    To do so seems fake and manipulative to me, and I'm not into it.

    It *is* manipulative - I agree.

    I'm also not trying to convince you to be. everyone has different ways of relating to and learning from the people around them, and I don't think mine is necessarily the best.

    However, I value understanding where people are coming from; I want to know what makes them tick, and why they have the opinions they do. When those opinions are offensive to me, I have to decide one thing: am I offended enough to not want to learn from this person?

    If the answer is yes, I either stop talking to them or start talking AT them.

    If the answer is no, then I generally will do everything I can to avoid stating my own opinions, and getting the person to reveal theirs.

    Very often, you learn enough about the person to put their "offensiveness" in a different light - which in turn diminishes any of the dishonesty you employed in learning it.

    And really, didn't some very wise person once say "Know thy enemy"?

    I think it might have been Mr. Miagi...

    ReplyDelete
  21. nonmagicSeptember 19, 2008 at 9:59 PM

    Whateverman,

    I see your point and I think it would work. I just can't do it.

    I grew up in an insane, absolutely off the chart weirdo evangelical church and I know that enemy up close and personal. I can't be nice to it when I went through the absolute poison it brings about.

    But like I said, you make a good point and you articulate it well.

    ReplyDelete
  22. TJHSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:00 PM

    He still thinks Rex Mundane is serious.

    By the way, Psycho, Ray allowed me to post your comments from here where you called Maragon a tease and a slut at AC. And you can't say it wasn't you; ID number, asswipe.

    ReplyDelete
  23. WhatevermanSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:00 PM

    As a very quick followup:

    I believe that people are either going to think for themselves or they aren't.

    Very often, the reason they "refuse to think for themselves" is because this advice is coming from someone they perceive as a philosophical enemy.

    Would you change at all if Ray suggested you needed to start thinking for yourself?

    ReplyDelete
  24. WhatevermanSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:02 PM

    Last thought: this is my methodology, and not necessarily good for everyone. I can respect different backgrounds and goals and such :)

    ReplyDelete
  25. nonmagicSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:05 PM

    Would you change at all if Ray suggested you needed to start thinking for yourself?

    Please explain.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Daddy StegosaurusSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:09 PM

    I really admire Kaitlyn's wit and intelligence, but when she is doing the saccharine sweet thing, it's just disturbing.

    But, I have to admit that her messages seem to get through. I think Ray can't believe she is really an atheist because she acts so nice (come to think of it, I don't know what Kaitlyn believes). In fact, the way he acts toward Kaitlyn sometimes makes me think he sincerely holds the beliefs he claims.

    ReplyDelete
  27. mjarsulicSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:12 PM

    I don't doubt that Ray is sincere about his beliefs at all. His problem is really that he is so tied to his beliefs that any evidence to the contrary is ignored.

    ReplyDelete
  28. WhatevermanSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:15 PM

    Nothing subtle implied.

    If Ray were to create a blog entry based on one of my quotes, and end it with some bit of wisdom advising me to think for myself (or be more open minded, etc), I wouldn't pay it any attention whatsoever.

    This is because Ray refuses to meet me halfway. He would essentially be asking me to accept the validity of his faith.

    If he instead tried to talk to me, and understand my point of view - to at least understand how I've come to my opinions, I would be light-years more receptive to his request.

    Knowing this about myself, I'm sure other people feel the same way. So, if I want Ray to actually consider taking my suggestion ("Think for yourself) seriously, I would need to demonstrate to him that I'm willing to listen to his opinions.

    Not only listen, but understand them better - rather than challenging the obvious logical inconsistencies.

    ---

    Daddy Stegosaurus nailed it - Kaitlyn's strategy (regardless of whether it's sincere or not) works. In my humble opinion, this is because she appears to spend more time asking Ray about the ature of his beliefs, rather than attacking them

    ReplyDelete
  29. nonmagicSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:18 PM

    Ahhhhh, thanks for the clarification.

    ReplyDelete
  30. mjarsulicSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:23 PM

    whateverman,

    Ray does this a lot. Every time he suggests a bible reading, he always recommends reading it with an open heart. I've heard this at work before and I interpret it as "if you believe the bible to be true, then you will interpret the bible to be true."

    ReplyDelete
  31. WhatevermanSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:34 PM

    "if you believe the bible to be true, then you will interpret the bible to be true."

    Exactly.

    And yet, if Ray actually spent time talking TO atheists (or his detractors in general), wouldn't you be more likely to look the passage up, and try to see if it made sense to you?

    I guess this is all I meant about (my perception) of Kaitlyn's strategy. If you appear to be listening to what they say, they'll be more likely to do the same in return.

    No, I'm not arguing for a softening of attitude towards Ray; he doesn't believe what he's saying, so I feel no need to treat him with respect. I'll take everything he says at face value, but until he demonstrates he's listening to atheists (in regards to their "beliefs"), that's the only capitulation he's going to get from me.

    I don't care enough to pretend to be listening to him any more.

    ReplyDelete
  32. mjarsulicSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:47 PM

    I do look up the verses that Ray references in his posts, but I use my NRSV rather than his NKJV popups. I believe that I should be evaluating the verse in context, not in isolation. While I enjoy trying to understand the bible, I find it dangerous to read it without the same skepticism I would have if I was reading a book on economics.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Daddy StegosaurusSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:49 PM

    I really think comedy and public humiliation is the best way to get to them. The problem is most of us can't poke fun at them without being a dick. Public humiliation or the fear of it absolutely works. How many people do you see pray before meals in restaurants? How many Christians are out there?

    On a vaguely related theme, do you think the belief in something unprovable is necessary for the longevity of a religion?

    ReplyDelete
  34. mjarsulicSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:53 PM

    I would think that belief in something unfalsifiable is necessary for the longevity of a religion.

    ReplyDelete
  35. mjarsulicSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:57 PM

    I don't think ridicule is a bad technique either in some cases. For some reason, storeytwin_a stands out as a rather close-minded theist and says a lot of retarded things. I have no problem ridiculing her.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Daddy StegosaurusSeptember 19, 2008 at 10:58 PM

    Yes. That's not really what I was getting at though.

    I just wonder if the "persecution" and self-doubt caused by holding logically precarious beliefs causes these communities to knit more tightly together.

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  37. mjarsulicSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:02 PM

    I think strict theological interpretation will cause a tighter community because you will have everyone believing the same thing. In the case of your average Catholic church, the beliefs and level of belief are all over the place. You don't get the tight knit communities there.

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  38. Daddy StegosaurusSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:04 PM

    Storeytwin and mike&lizzette I don't mess with much. They are just like some of my aunts that are about that age. The only way they'll believe God is not real is if he comes down and tells them himself. Frankly I'm surprised they even come talk to us.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Debunkey MonkeySeptember 19, 2008 at 11:09 PM


    I sincerely think you are not that well if you think "converting to evangelical Christianity" is worth a shot.

    I don't think I'm OK. I can't work. I feel constantly agitated. My mind is going a mile a minute. I'm thinking of killing myself.

    This is not like me at all.

    ReplyDelete
  40. mjarsulicSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:09 PM

    The reason I can't stand storeytwin is because she will resort to hell threats and accusations of demon possession when she cannot put a good argument together.

    ReplyDelete
  41. mjarsulicSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:16 PM

    kaitlyn,

    If it's serious, I would not jump into becoming a member of a church as a quick fix. If at all possible, talk to a physician and see what they suggest.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Debunkey MonkeySeptember 19, 2008 at 11:17 PM

    I can't afford a doctor.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Daddy StegosaurusSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:18 PM

    I'll second that. If you're having a difficult time get real help.

    ReplyDelete
  44. WhatevermanSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:21 PM

    You should probably shop around a bit then, Kaitlyn. Christian Scientists and Scientology both offer relatively inexpensive alternative medicine.

    The southern baptists still have a pretty active theology involving snakes. Icky, I know, but they swear it works.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Debunkey MonkeySeptember 19, 2008 at 11:21 PM

    I don't know if that's why I'm joining.

    Terry told me to join, and I said why not?

    But now that I think about it, I'm really not right in the head right now.

    ReplyDelete
  46. mjarsulicSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:26 PM

    If you really are serious about joining a church, you sould shop definitely shop around by sitting in on some services. The last thing I would do is blindly join a church that Terry or anyone else would suggest.

    ReplyDelete
  47. nonmagicSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:27 PM

    DS said: "I really think comedy and public humiliation is the best way to get to them. The problem is most of us can't poke fun at them without being a dick."

    I can barely get out of bed in the morning without being a dick, much less deal with the Rayheads and contain myself.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Daddy StegosaurusSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:28 PM

    I'd like to try out Derren Brown. Have you seen his instant conversion bit on YouTube? He's supposed to be an atheist ans skeptic. I wonder if I would fall out like those people do?

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  49. WhatevermanSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:29 PM

    A sincere apology if I've misunderstood, Kaitlyn

    ReplyDelete
  50. MaragonSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:29 PM

    Kaitlyn,

    "I don't think I'm OK. I can't work. I feel constantly agitated. My mind is going a mile a minute. I'm thinking of killing myself."

    From one woman who has dealt with depression to another - seek help from someone. Tell someone close to you about how you're feeling and ask them to help you find some medical attention.

    Crisis counseling is free. They will not charge you for it.

    There's no shame in asking for help when you need it - everyone has been there.
    The only shame here will be if you do something regretful, such as hurting yourself.

    As cliche as it sounds - no matter how bad things feel, they can get better. I know, I lived through it.



    If you want to believe in a god - that's fine. That's not what this is really about though. Don't use a band-aid to try and fix a gaping wound. Seek real help, get yourself under control and then make decisions about your beliefs. What's most important is you health and sanity.

    If you ever need someone to talk to, please feel free to email me. I'd be glad to help.

    ReplyDelete
  51. nonmagicSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:29 PM

    Kaitlyn,

    There are public clinics that have doctors that are pretty much free of charge. Look into some community resources to see if you can find one on your area.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Debunkey MonkeySeptember 19, 2008 at 11:34 PM

    I'm not depressed. It's like if you combine red bull and lsd, that's how I feel.

    ReplyDelete
  53. MaragonSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:35 PM

    Here's a list of local resources. I don't know how current it is or anything about the San Fran area - but look it over.

    http://suicidehotlines.com/california.html

    ReplyDelete
  54. MaragonSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:37 PM

    Kaitlyn said...

    "I'm not depressed. It's like if you combine red bull and lsd, that's how I feel."

    An urge to kill yourself is generally pretty indicative of depression.

    However, feeling 'manic' is just as concerning as deep depression.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Debunkey MonkeySeptember 19, 2008 at 11:37 PM

    I appreciate your help, but I'll be fine. I'm not stupid enough to kill myself or anything.

    ReplyDelete
  56. mjarsulicSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:46 PM

    Kaitlyn,

    Just be careful and don't hesitate to get help if you need it. My email address is in my profile if you ever need someone to talk to.

    ReplyDelete
  57. AnonymousSeptember 19, 2008 at 11:53 PM

    Kaitlyn,

    At such moments as those you are going through please do not do anything stupid. Please please accept my electronic hug, and do talk to Maragon and the others offering more direct help to you. I understand you also have family around, right? You said one of your nieces was born the same way as you?

    Have some company and some help.

    G.E.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Debunkey MonkeySeptember 20, 2008 at 12:03 AM

    Sorry if I worried anyone. I'm fine. I promise. I go through this kind of thing from time to time.

    I've been to therapists before. They teach me relaxation techniques (which don't work), or they prescribe drugs for depression or anxiety (which don't work).

    I give up with professionals.

    ReplyDelete
  59. AnonymousSeptember 20, 2008 at 12:10 AM

    Kaitlyn my dear,

    What about learning to box or some kind of martial arts, but truly physically demanding?

    G.E.

    ReplyDelete
  60. AnonymousSeptember 20, 2008 at 12:12 AM

    Kaitlyn,

    I have to go to sleep, but have another hug.

    Nighty night,

    G.E.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Debunkey MonkeySeptember 20, 2008 at 12:24 AM

    I play DDR... a lot... every day. In fact, I think I'm going to play right now.

    *hugs to g.e.*

    ReplyDelete
  62. Matthew WoollerSeptember 20, 2008 at 3:19 AM

    Kaitlyn - the red bull and lsd / racing mind / agitation sounds very much like an anxiety disorder to me... Which is often the root of many a depression.

    Someone mentioned exercise up thread - and that is good... Running, swimming - anything vigorous.

    SSRIs are a great medication for this kind of disorder - they take a while to work, but when they do, you can almost feel your brain relax and the incessant chatter slow.

    Wish you the best.

    M

    ReplyDelete
  63. Matthew WoollerSeptember 20, 2008 at 3:21 AM

    Oh yes, above all, seek help - proper medical help. Suicide is not something one contemplates idly - to even think it is indicative of something being 'wrong'.

    If there is anything I can do, let me know.

    M

    ReplyDelete
  64. WeemaryanneSeptember 20, 2008 at 8:53 AM

    Kaitlyn, if the relaxation techniques and meds don't work, that's not a good reason to avoid professional help. Also, religion doesn't necessarily work either -- there are recent news reports to that effect from the ever-so-pious state of Utah:

    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4403731&page=1

    Of course the godbots will counter with reports that "believers are happier." Uh-huh. Drunks are happier, too, but I would hesitate to recommend alcohol as a cure-all.

    ReplyDelete
  65. theShaggySeptember 20, 2008 at 9:41 AM

    Kaitlyn,

    I went through a bunch of therapists and counsellors in my life, too. I've always avoided ones that could give me medication, because I have always been of the opinion that meds are an easy way to deal with your problems and change your personality. I had a rough summer, so am actually looking them now.

    However, a couple of years ago I was referred to this former doctor who was now a therapist. Unlike everyone who came before her, she didn't scamper away from the issues that I lashed out at, rather she started hammering at them. There were no relaxation techniques, she actually tried to make me upset intentionally. Once I got there, she'd stop and tell me "See? Obviously there's something going on there, so let's figure out why.

    She didn't take the easy route, she took the hard one but in the end it was the best thing that ever happened to me. It might take you a few tries to find a good therapist, but when you find the one that works, the world opens up. Keep trying, I'd still suggest you avoid God...

    ReplyDelete
  66. NaFaSeptember 20, 2008 at 10:15 AM

    Kaitlyn

    Please think long and hard about the route you are taking. It seems that when people are struggling in life they are ripe to be snatched up by cults. And that is exactly what Evangelical Christianity is...a glorified cult.

    I don't think that searching for 'god' in itself is irrational. Even though I am an atheist, if there is a god I'd like to know about it. But there is absolutely nothing rational about Evagelical Christianity. Everything about it constantly slams into the brick wall of reality.

    Someone above mentioned this route would be like just putting a bandaid on the probelm and they are a 100% correct. Christianity likes to suppress & deny, supress & deny, despite all their BS ranting about fully admiting 'you are a filthy sinner'.

    It is true that in order to conquer our inner 'demons', we must confront them and be 100% honest with ourselves. But their way is just a con. You are not a filthy sinner, you are a perfectly normal human! You are a beautiful person with a beautiful mind full of potential. Please do not squash that potential!

    From reading your writings you seem to be a 'spiritual' person. That's a normal human tendency and I understand that natural materialism may seem not to offer much to that side of our humanity. But it can. The answer, IMO, though, is to embrace reality in it's fullest not fantasy (ie. Christianity). If there really is a god, reality is the only place where you will find him/her/it.

    All the best to you. I know a lot of people here have had struggles in their lives and would be willing to listen and help, myself included. Please email if you ever would need to talk.

    ReplyDelete
  67. CraigSeptember 20, 2008 at 11:33 AM

    kaitlyn,

    What nafa said. I've listened to Todd and Ray's radio show long enough to know every problem a person might have is a sin and the only cure is read your bible more. It can be a temporary salve but destructive in the long run. They don't care about the person, just the soul. It's a rigid doctrine and to question it is not only wrong but demonic.

    Having said that I could think of worse things than trying an open, welcomming church. You mentioned the Unitarians previously, I think. What I'm getting at is human contact is important when your feeling the way you do. It may be difficult but a safe, non judgemental place has helped me in the past. It doesn't have to be a church either. A group of people with common interests, whatever. It sounds like you might be isolating yourself. I hope you take up the offers from your friends on this blog and you don't give up on pro help. But emails can't replace having coffee with a trusted friend or being with a group of non threatening humans who actually care about kaitlyn.

    The best for you kaitlyn.

    craig j.

    ReplyDelete
  68. KiwiInOzSeptember 21, 2008 at 6:23 PM

    Like everyone else here Kaitlyn, I offer you my e-support (for what it is worth).

    Obviously it is impossible to diagnose over the web and I wouldn't try to. But it is worth asking about things like bipolar disorder (which used to be known as manic-depressive disorder). It's an interesting 'disorder', given that many hugely talented people 'suffer' from it. Some choose to control it, while others use it to be at their creative best.

    Take care, seek help, and select the options that work best for you, as there is no one right answer.

    ReplyDelete
  69. AnonymousSeptember 22, 2008 at 1:54 AM

    Kaitlyn,
    I don't have much to add here as advice, other than echoing what everyone else already said, which is please seek help if you are feeling that way, even if, as you say, you just get that way sometimes. Depression/anxiety disorders (which you may or may not have, I'm certainly no doctor) need to be treated by a professional. It may take a while to find the right therapist or counselor for you, but they're out there.

    The only other thing I want to add is a personal story-
    Pretty much everyone has struggled with depression at some point in their lives. In my family, those who struggle the worst, tend to act horribly due to it. There have been 4 suicides in my family, my dad's being the most recent, 3 years ago. He had seen a therapist very few times, and had tried medication. In my opinion, he didn't find the right therapist, and didn't stick with treatment.

    Personally, I'm on lexapro right now, have been for a little over a year. Its helped a little but I hate it (side effects etc) so I am tapering off of it and hoping to continue with talk therapy to deal with my issues. Meds work for some people, but they can also make things a lot worse. I really hope you find what's right for you to get through this. It can be done. Good luck.

    ReplyDelete

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