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Saturday, September 27, 2008

Lurker's Haven

Good Morning,

With all that's going on over at AC and the potential evolution of this site, I have noticed a new crop of posters emerging that are either totally new or have been lurking for a while but only recently put finger to key. There are also a few, particularly at AC, that post once or twice but get scared off by multiple replies from seasoned skeptics and never raise their face above the parapet again.

I thought it would be nice to have a post where any lurkers, casual observers, visitors from AC and/or others could post a quick 'hello' and let us know that you're there.

So this goes out to everyone; theist, deist, atheist, anti-theist, pantheist and any others that may be out there. Give us a wave!

Come on in, I'll put the kettle on...


174 comments:

  1. Come on Dax, get the ball rolling!

    ReplyDelete
  2. President George Washington, September 17th, 1796 "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"
    His Prayer At Valley Forge "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prostrates myself before Thee."

    Thomas Jefferson
    God who gave us life, gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have removed their only firm basis: a conviction in the minds of men that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.

    Patrick Henry
    There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us.

    Declaration of Independence
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    Hear ye the Word of God:
    Your fathers knew that I was God and many prayers were offered for the freedoms you now enjoy. I set this nation on a hill to be a light to the world but now you are filled with darkness and sin. The stinch of your sickness and perversion has filled my nostrils and I am even now ready to send forth destruction to the whole land. Those who are called by my name have failed to stand against the sin that has overtaken this nation. Your complacency has allowed the evil one to come in and rob, rape and kill. Your failure to do my word and not just hear has allowed all manner of evil to creep into your very lives. Even now there are some reading this and saying, "What sin? What have we done that this nation should be brought down?" Find My Word and read Isaiah 59 and 2 Timothy 3:1-9. For the evil that is saturating this land I will leave you as it is written in Isaiah 13:12, 21-22. Yet even now it is not too late. If My people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. I will send forth a final warning. A great and mighty shaking of this people is coming. As a father shakes his child awake I will shake you. Awaken my children for the hour is at hand.

    "Choose you this day whom ye will serve!"

    You have been warned.

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  3. One of God's Watchman said,"Choose you this day whom ye will serve!

    I already have, and its serving Ray and others like him. When the opportunity presents itself, I serve them all a big slice of humble pie.

    ~Atomic Chimp

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  4. Hey, just wanted to say I read this blog almost every day. I've commented a few times - most recently on Kaitlin's find-and-replace post because I thought she made a good point with it.

    I also like reading Silent Dave's challenging posts, one of which I'm still working on responding to.

    This site would be much better without the trash talk and the petty ad hominem attacks against Ray (not talking about logically refuting a point).

    BTW, if your site is going to evolve make sure you have a transitional form to prove it ;)

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  5. one of god's watchman-

    There is nothing at all about Christ in either the Declaration of Independance, or the Constitution.

    So much for the US being a "Christian Nation".

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  6. Washington also showed the secular background of the government in the letter to the Hebrew congregation at Newport.

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  7. one of god's watchman

    what point are you trying to make and what have we been warned about?
    is that a threat or a friendly heads up?

    ReplyDelete
  8. Hey, OoGW:

    Those guys owned slaves. Should I own them too?

    And you should read the other things that Jefferson had to say about religion - Christianity in particular.

    ReplyDelete
  9. markg said:

    BTW, if your site is going to evolve make sure you have a transitional form to prove it ;)


    ar! ar! good one.

    You're well welcome mark. Sorry about the rough language, but there are few rules here. And people like yourself you can string a resoned argument together are always welcome.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Off topic entirely but is anyone else noticing the trend in Ray's posts? His latest two of which contain absolutely none of his own material. I would never resort to merely feeding off my readers for posts. Perhaps I missed something and this is just the lastest attempt to achieve blogging relevantcy, but it occurs to me that if you don't have anything to say you don't deserve to be blogging.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Well I really don't know what to add to this post, but since I'm new and since OOGW decided to do quotes so will I: "Masquerading as a man with a reason My charade is the event of the season And if I claim to be a wise man, well It surely means that I don't know" -Kansas!!

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  12. OoGW,

    "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
    ~ Thomas Jefferson

    "Religion is the end of love and honesty, the beginning of confusion; faith is a colorful hope or fear, the origin of folly."
    ~ Tao Te Ching

    "Your beliefs are not ideas that your mind posesses. Your beliefs are ideas that posess your mind."
    ~dale

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  13. My Freind Mr. Franklin,
    It is written, "That even the fool seems wise when he keeps his mouth shut." In this case it would be keyboard. Meaning no disrespect to you but more study is required on your part.

    The original Mr. Franklin had this to say about God:

    “The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?”
    and
    “My dear friend, do not imagine that I am vain enough to ascribe our success [Revolution] to any superiority…If it had not been for the justice of our cause, and the consequent interposition of Providence, in which we had faith, we must have been ruined. If I had ever before been an atheist, I should now have been convinced of the being and government of a Deity!”

    Mr. Chimp,
    A little HUMBLE PIE would do this whole nation a world of good. For without it, you and all those that believe as you do are going to have a very tough time in the very near future.

    My Fathers cup of Wrath is about to spill over and his anger at the sin in this nation will not only bring you to your knees but lay you on your belly.

    I beg you all to reconsider your positions. There's a Heaven to gain and a Hell to shun.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Orni,
    I think the thought of having pictures of him with a cock in his face for several days on his own blog has had a traumatic effect on him.
    That scam has become known as "PenisGate08."

    ReplyDelete
  15. OoGW,
    If you are trying to make a case for our country being founded on christianity, you will do well to notice that only three of your ten commandments have any foundation in American jurisprudence.

    The founding document, the Constitution makes no mention of any reference to any god or the bible.
    There were good reasons for this.

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  16. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  17. One of God's Watchman,

    So basically your argument boils down to an appeal to authority and Pascal's Wager.

    Noted.

    ReplyDelete
  18. "My Fathers cup of Wrath is about to spill over and his anger at the sin in this nation will not only bring you to your knees but lay you on your belly."

    Where have I heard this before?.... Oh yeah all throughout history.

    ReplyDelete
  19. My Friends,

    As my title says I am a watchman. The watchman's duty is to warn the people of coming danger or sin. At this site I have done my duty. I have warned you of both. I now must move on and warn others. I will look in on what's being said from time to time but I will not contend with you again unless my Father directs me to.

    I know not Pascal's wager, or care, and the only authority I appeal to is the Great God of Heaven and earth.

    God does not threaten, He warns, in love in order to break through the hard hearts and that the new soft heart comes to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, the Blessed Son.

    I leave all of you these things to think about:

    The first three versus of Psalms 2 says that the nations are plotting against God and Christ the King. This is happening at this very moment in the United Nations. They are trying to pass a law called "Defamation of Religion". Check it out. This was predicted 3,000 years ago, in this book called The Bible, and now is.

    Concerning the nation of Israel. No other nation has existed for a 1,000 years been totally destroyed, its people scattered to the four winds, the land laid waste and then be reborn 2,000 years later as the very same nation and people. This also was predicted about 2,500 years ago in the same book in Ezekiel 36 and 37.

    Ezekiel 38 and 39 will tell you what's happening between Russia and Iran right now. Russia is called Magog and Iran is Persia.

    America is Revelation 18.

    This book called The Bible is not a single book. It is 66 books written over a 4,000 year period by at least 44 different writers, that were inspired by the Spirit of God. No other book can match it.

    You want specifics, "READ IT!"

    HEAR YE THE WORD OF THE LORD GOD MOST HIGH CONCERNING YOUR LAST DAYS:

    "There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God--having a form of godliness but denying its power."
    "...in the last days SCOFFERS will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

    Now my friends when you stand before the Great God of Heaven and earth your blood will be on your own hands.

    I will pray that I meet some of you in that Wonderful Place.

    YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

    Farewell

    ReplyDelete
  20. OoGW said...

    President George Washington, September 17th, 1796 "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"

    9/17/1796 was the date of George Washington's farewell address. If you read the entire address, you do not find any mention of God or the bible. Why is it that you misquote George Washington? Conservapedia does not even stoop that low.

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  21. I rarely post comments on blogs. The continuing arguments seem to take a ton of time that I don't have. But since we have "god's watchmen" in our precense I would urge everyone to continue being "watchful" for these freaks in every way possible, especially politically. I've seen it asked on Ray's blog why atheists spend time there, and while it's entertaining to observe the human ignorance on dislpay, there's a more important reason to be there. I'm not a huge fan of Chris Hedges' work as a whole, but one piece is well worth examining.

    American Fascists
    The Christian Right and the War on America
    You can get acquainted with the book here.
    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chris%20_Hedges/American_Fascists.html
    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/ChristianRight_AmerFascism.html

    p71
    From American Facists - Chris Hedges.
    "The point the evangelists are instructed to make is that eternal life cannot be achieved through good deeds or even a good life. It I is impossible to earn your way into heaven. We must accept that we have sinned, will always commit sins, and ask to be born again so Jesus will take our sins upon Him. Once this is done we can learn to live a new way, a way that, while not totally free of sin, allows us to live a life approved by God, a life in which, with the help of the church, we learn to reject sinful acts. The believer can learn to condemn and avoid sinful acts-acts defined for him or her by church leaders as anything that doesn't please God or is a transgression of His law. The leaders determine these acts, rousing the believer against what they label as sins, such as abortion or homosexuality. The emphasis, once the conversion is made, is on acts, acts that please or displease God. The believer can delineate these acts only with the aid of church leaders. There is a calculated destruction of individual conscience. All must submit to the will of those godly men who define the communal good. Sin, in short, is anything the leaders do not like."

    I'm also here to warn all atheists and free thinkers. Don't take these nut jobs lightly. They are serious and seriously deranged.

    Pete

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  22. OOGWM,

    First of all, you spelled your own name wrong. It should be 'watchmen' not 'watchman'. I have a hard time taking someone seriously that can't even spell their own name, but ok, let's take a hard look at your argument.

    You said:

    As my title says I am a watchman. The watchman's duty is to warn the people of coming danger or sin. At this site I have done my duty. I have warned you of both. I now must move on and warn others. I will look in on what's being said from time to time but I will not contend with you again unless my Father directs me to.



    What you've done is talk about what you believe to be true of your own religion without presenting any proof as to why anyone should take your claims seriously. So your proclamation that you have 'done your duty' fallacious, unless that was all you intended to do.

    You said:

    I know not Pascal's wager, or care, and the only authority I appeal to is the Great God of Heaven and earth.


    If you are going to attempt to put forth an argument as to why anyone should believe your claims, you should take the time to look at logical vs. illogical arguments. Otherwise, you are simply stating your opinion, no matter how many gods you think you are doing the duty of.

    You said:

    God does not threaten, He warns, in love in order to break through the hard hearts and that the new soft heart comes to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, the Blessed Son.


    My heart is not hard. If it were it would not be beating and pumping blood though my body.
    Believing in your deity will not make my heart softer. It will not affect the tissue of that organ in the least.

    So, in other words, what does a hard heart really mean? What does a soft heart really mean? If these god issues are as important as you claim, surely they are important enough to use terms that are not veiled in nebulous language.

    Aside from that, you present no evidence that your deity warns vs. threatens nor do you present any evidence that Jesus Christ was a 'blessed son' of your deity.

    You said:

    I leave all of you these things to think about:

    The first three versus of Psalms 2 says that the nations are plotting against God and Christ the King. This is happening at this very moment in the United Nations. They are trying to pass a law called "Defamation of Religion". Check it out. This was predicted 3,000 years ago, in this book called The Bible, and now is.


    There is no possible way that people who wrote any of the books of the bible could have known about the United Nations.

    If you say that your deity told them about it then why did he not tell them to write out something of the sort like "This is what is going to go on in the United Nations in the year 2008. Never mind that you don't know what the United Nations is now, just write this down, it will be very important at some point in the future."

    Also, I have never seen a single 'prediction' in the bible come to fruition. What I have seen is a lot of people interpreting the bible to make it seem as if certain passages match up with current world events. People have always done this, and the claims change as the world events change.

    You said:

    Concerning the nation of Israel. No other nation has existed for a 1,000 years been totally destroyed, its people scattered to the four winds, the land laid waste and then be reborn 2,000 years later as the very same nation and people. This also was predicted about 2,500 years ago in the same book in Ezekiel 36 and 37

    Again, see what I wrote above about biblical 'predictions'.

    You said:

    Ezekiel 38 and 39 will tell you what's happening between Russia and Iran right now. Russia is called Magog and Iran is Persia.

    America is Revelation 18.



    Again, see what I wrote above about biblical 'predictions'.

    You said:

    This book called The Bible is not a single book. It is 66 books written over a 4,000 year period by at least 44 different writers, that were inspired by the Spirit of God. No other book can match it.


    Again, simply making claims with out substantial evidence does not make them so. Where is your evidence that any of the books of the bible were inspired by a deity?

    Also, when you say 'No other book can match it' that is another nebulous statement with no real meaning unless you set forth certain criteria for what is to be matched, how, and compare it to other books to see how it stacks up. You didn't do that.

    You said:

    You want specifics, "READ IT!"


    I have. Several times. Stop yelling.

    You said:

    HEAR YE THE WORD OF THE LORD GOD MOST HIGH CONCERNING YOUR LAST DAYS:



    Stop yelling.

    You said:

    "There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God--having a form of godliness but denying its power."
    "...in the last days SCOFFERS will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."



    Quoting verses from your holy book without any frame of reference or without even explaining why you are quoting them is futile.

    If you are trying to say that we scoff at your holy book and therefore that means something based on what your book says, or that anything in the verse you quoted means anything for our future, then please tell me why these things have always existed and why now is any different than any of those other times.

    You said:

    Now my friends when you stand before the Great God of Heaven and earth your blood will be on your own hands.

    I will pray that I meet some of you in that Wonderful Place.




    You still haven't presented any substantial evidence for a 'Great God of Heaven', or that there will be 'blood on your own hands'.

    You have also not presented any evidence that this 'Wonderful Place' exists, assuming you mean your biblical heaven.

    You said:


    YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!


    Do you think that typing things in all caps makes them any more true than if you just took off the caps lock and presented some hard evidence?

    Also, stop yelling.

    You said:

    Farewell

    See ya, dude.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Pete,
    These people would eviserate the constitution in a heartbeat if they ever got the chance, and we cn see by this OoGM that they are bat shit crazy.

    Thanks for your comments!

    ReplyDelete
  24. Ornitheologist said...
    Off topic entirely but is anyone else noticing the trend in Ray's posts? His latest two of which contain absolutely none of his own material.

    Well, he is going to write TWO books before December!

    ReplyDelete
  25. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  26. Uh...

    Wow, this thread sidetracked fast.

    I'm Kelley, I lurked at Ray's for about a week before finding this place and started commenting here about a week ago. So I guess I'm pretty new.

    Hi, everybody!

    Side note, since he seems to be dominating the thread:

    @ OoGW

    Do you read the Left Behind books? It sounds like it... If so, you should know that Premillenial Dispensationalism (what it sounds like you probably support, since Magog is often cited by rapture/tribulation proponents) isn't even Biblical (again, assuming from the obvious that this is the particular religious text you favor.) I think you're just regurgitating some scare tactics someone else used to frighten you into your belief. It all sounds very fear based to me...

    Reposted for typos, sorry.

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  27. OoGW,
    Since you are fond of quotes, here's on fer ya.

    "The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith.'"
    ~Robert G. Ingersoll

    ReplyDelete
  28. NM said...

    Do you think that typing things in all caps makes them any more true than if you just took off the caps lock and presented some hard evidence?


    This has become known as the "God of the Caps".

    ReplyDelete
  29. Hi Kelley!!! =D

    Yeah OOGW killed this thread pretty fast.....*sadness*

    ReplyDelete
  30. @Pete--

    I'm also here to warn all atheists and free thinkers. Don't take these nut jobs lightly. They are serious and seriously deranged.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The creepy thing about it all is that on a one-to-one basis most Christians are just as nice as they can be. But get 'em in a group---especially a voting bloc--and look out.

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  31. As my title says I am a watchman.

    Your title should more accurately reflect what you actually are then. How about "Total Douchebag"?

    Nonmagic already did a great job of eviscerating your babble, so I thought that I'd just go for the ad hominem. I doubt that you're the type who'd listen to reason anyway.

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  32. Lance,
    And such a good ad hom it was! One of my personal favs!

    ReplyDelete
  33. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  34. CAPS LOCK IS LIKE CRUISE CONTROL FOR TRUTH!

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  35. @ craig

    This has become known as "The God of the Caps."

    Genius.

    ReplyDelete
  36. 'llo all, not to derail the discussion but in the spirit of the post just wanted to say hi, longtime lurker firsttime... well second actually I commented here yesterday. Post on RCF/AC under another name, won't say which and my reasons are my own but you can probably guess, and indeed some here already have.

    Been an actual atheist for about a year now, turns out to have been Dawkins who helped me see sense, though in a sort of roundabout way, but thats another story. Love the blog, hate the Ray, keep fighting the good fight.

    ReplyDelete
  37. :::Waves to GE:::


    And....Welcome to Raytractors Kelley!

    And....Craig, LOL, thank you for the giggle!

    And...same to Lance and Kaitlyn...


    Kelley,

    That's interesting about the Premillenial Dispensationalism....I've never heard of it. I remember a lot from when I was growing up fundy, but a lot has changed. So many new ways to twist things up and try to make them fit nowadays.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Hey Magma42,

    Welcome! Dawkins got me thinking about atheism as well. I'm guessing like many atheists it was probably time, lots of thinking, and multiple influences that de-converted you. Am I right?

    ReplyDelete
  39. @tss

    Basically, yeah. The actual moment was a sort of weird one. See, for the longest time I was sort of deist, thinking God just had to exist for some reason or other, cheifly something like "everything is contained within something else, the universe is infinite, what could contain infinity? God!" If I'm remembering, with a healthy dash of "well most people think it, so there must be like some truth to it somewhere." Then it was like a month or two after reading God Delusion that I was explaining my position to a friend that I realized "Waitaminute, I'm... am I full of crap?" And turns out I was. Go figure.

    Then I sort of took it further, see Dawkins is a sort of "God is a testable hypothesis" position, and I'm actually trying to work on a logical proof that God cannot possibly exist in the first place. Not just in Hume's "Miracles are bogus" sort of way, but like... okay if God exists he would have to fill some sort of need, but theres no need for him to fill. Evolution, Astrophysics, Quantum theory can reveal explanations for the existence and permanence of our Universe, so what could God possibly accomplish that could not just happen naturally? If nothing, then why should He exist at all?

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  40. Magma42,

    That's very introspective and logical of you. I definitely remember feeling very insecure when I was a christian because I couldn't defend my faith. It's interesting how the more science advances the less need there seems to be for a god. First the argument from most mainstream theists was "god created everything", now it's "god created everything, but it was through evolution/science". lol, then what purpose does god serve?

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  41. Absolutely. And it seems more and more that God only exists as some sort of rhetorical satisfier of misconceptions in our perspective. "There must have been a first cause, a prime mover, an unmade maker" to aid us in holding worldviews that are most likely mistaken in the first place. God's the quickest way to answer questions like that (and here I'm talking God in the vague supernatural consciousness sense, not yahweh specifically) but so too were Flat Earth and Geocentricity the quickest answers once, didn't make them right, and odds are favorable toward there being better naturalistic explanations for everything.

    ReplyDelete
  42.      I believe that "Watchman" is none other than Ray Comfort. He agrees with everything Ray says; he talks like Ray; and he has blocked his profile making it impossible to check.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Magma42,

    Well put.

    Pvblivs,

    Perhaps watchman is Ray comfort's outlet so he can say stuff he maybe doesn't have the chutzpa to say on AC. Or maybe he's just Terry.

    ReplyDelete
  44. I don't really think Watchman and Ray Comfort are one and the same. I would have expected Ray at the very least to spell his name correctly, but... I've been known to be wrong before.

    ReplyDelete
  45. kelly r said...

    Premillenial Dispensationalism (what it sounds like you probably support, since Magog is often cited by rapture/tribulation proponents) isn't even Biblical


    Could you please explain this statement further please? I want to make sure I'm following what you are saying.

    Thanks.

    BTW...I'm mostly a lurker..formerly at Ray's. Hello everyone.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Hi Freed!!!

    Have some welcome cookies (::) (::)

    ReplyDelete
  47. HI Freed-

    we also have transubstantiated wafers with pate

    ( + )

    ReplyDelete
  48. Freed, are you Cynthia? Either way, Welcome to Raytractors!

    ReplyDelete
  49. By the way, welcome One of God's Watchman.

    I hope you stay.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Hi, Freed. It's nice to see you over here at the Raytractors. Feel free to post any time. :)

    ReplyDelete
  51. Yes NM it's me, Cynthia. Thanks for the welcome.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Just for you, one of god's watchman (ignoring the grammar of that)..

    Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.
    Annals of Congress, 5th Congress

    Article 1. There is a firm and perpetual peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary, made by the free consent of both parties, and guarantied by the most potent Dey and Regency of Algiers.

    Art. 2. If any goods belonging to any nation with which either of the parties is at war, shall be loaded on board of vessels belonging to the other party, they shall pass free, and no attempt shall be made to take or detain them.

    Art. 3. If any citizens , subjects, or effects, belonging to either party, shall be found on board a prize vessel taken from an enemy by the other party, such citizens or subjects shall be set at liberty, and the effects restored to the owners.

    Art. 4. Proper passports are to be given to all vessels of both parties, by which they are to be known. And considering the distance between the two countries, eighteen months from the date of this treaty, shall be allowed for procuring such passports. During this interval the other papers, belonging to such vessels, shall be sufficient for their protection.

    Art. 5. A citizen or subject of either party having bought a prize vessel, condemned by the other party, or by any other nation, the certificates of condemnation and bill of sale shall be a sufficient passport for such vessel for one year; this being a reasonable time for her to procure a proper passport.

    Art. 6. Vessels of either party, putting into the ports of the other, and having need of provisions or other supplies, they shall be furnished at the market price. And if any such vessel shall so put in, from a disaster at sea, and have occasion to repair, she shall be at liberty to land and re-embark her cargo without paying any duties. But in case shall she be compelled to the land her cargo.

    Art. 7. Should a vessel of either party be cast on the shore of the other, all proper assistance shall be given to her and her people; no pillage shall be allowed; the property shall remain at the disposition of the owners; and the crew protectedand succored till they can be sent to their country.

    Art. 8. If a vessel of either party should be attacked by an enemy, within gun-shot of the forts of the other , she shall be defended as much as possible. If she be in port she shall not be seized on or attacked, when it is in the power of the other party to protect her. And when she proceeds to sea, no enemy shall be allowed to pursue her from the same port, within twenty-four hours after her departure.

    Art. 9. The commerce between the United States and Tripoli; the protection to be given to merchants, masters of vessels, and seamen; the reciprocal right of the establishing Consuls in each country; and the privileges, immunities, and jurisdiction, to be on the same footing with those of the most favored nations respectively.

    Art. 10. The money and presents demanded by the Bey of Tripoli, as a full and satisfactory consideration on his part, and on the part of his subjects, for this treaty of perpetual peace and friendship, are acknowledged to have been received by him previous to his signing the same, according to a receipt which is hereto annexed, except such as part as is promised, on the part of the United States, to be delivered and paid by them on the arrival of their Consul in Tripoli; of which part a note is likewise hereto annexed. And no pretense of any periodical tribute of further payments is ever to be made by either party.

    Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

    Art. 12. In case of any dispute, arising from a violation of any of the articles of this treaty, no appeal shall be made to arms; nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever. But if the Consul, residing at the place where the dispute shall happen, shall not be able to settle the same, an amicable referrence shall be made to the mutual friend of the parties, the Dey of Algiers; the parties hereby engaging to abide by his decision. And he, by virtue of his signature to this treaty, engages for himself and successors to declare the justice of the case, according to the true interpretation of the treaty, and to use all the means in his power to enforce the observance of the same.

    Signed and sealed at Tripoli of Barbary the 3d day of Junad in the year of the Hegira 1211— corresponding with the 4th day of November, 1796, by

    JUSSOF BASHAW MAHOMET, Bey.
    MAMET, Treasurer.
    AMET, Minister of Marine.
    SOLIMAN KAYA.
    GALIL, General of the Troops.
    MAHOMET, Commander of the City.
    AMET, Chamberlain.
    ALLY, Chief of the Divan.
    MAMET, Secretary.

    Signed and sealed at Algiers, the 4th day of Argill, 1211—corresponding with the 3d day of
    January, 1797, by

    HASSAN BASHAW, Dey,

    And by the agent Plenipotentiary of the United States of America,

    JOEL BARLOW.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Magma and Sorcerer,

    I'm going to throw my hat into the discussion, because that's what caused me to really abandon agnosticism/pseudo-deism. I had this whole idea that there was some grander force operating in life, but then, as Magma puts it, I realized that God or whatever it was wasn't necessary. Everything that exists exists out of necessity somewhere, but my whole outlook and philosphy on life was exactly the same whether there was an intelligence on top of it or not.

    The only difference, as I saw it, was that a god offered a specific person to blame because he wouldn't fight back.

    Realizing this in a specific situation (I actually remember that specific situation) changed my mind and I became an atheist within minutes. Later on, I read Richard Dawkins and it just kept making more and more sense.

    But yes, I agree that God's existence doesn't make sense out of a lack of necessity. Perhaps one day, necessity will be found, but everything works so well automatically that there need not be an intelligence behind it.

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  54. theshaggy,

    That's cool you were inspired by Dawkins too. One thing you said sounded very familiar to me:

    "The only difference, as I saw it, was that a god offered a specific person to blame because he wouldn't fight back."

    I remember when I was younger I knew this girl who died a particularly painful death and it was like a type of comfort for me to really hate and blame god for it. Now when people die I rarely have someone so easy to blame. God was an awesome thing to be mad at because he didn't say anything back and it made me feel like all the evil things I thought about him were right because they went unchallenged. As well, because I didn't view him as a person I had no empathy for him. I miss venting my anger on him, but I think I'm a more peaceful person without the idea of an omnipotent god.

    ReplyDelete
  55. What's this issue over at Ray's about this 'Glory to God' person being banned for pornographic content on his/her page? I can't find the profile or any link. Has anyone seen it?

    ReplyDelete
  56. It was a bit tortuous. You had to go to his profile and then click on his web page link, which took you to lemonwhatsit pic of the old guys sucking cock.

    There wasn't any porn on his profile. There was porn LINKED to his profile

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  57. Yep - welcome to anyone who wishes to opine on Ray's antics, God(s) and/or the lack of such (a) being(s), religion, a-theism, whatever.

    This group's pretty inclusive, but generally values logic and rationality. This means we're capable of criticizing and being criticized.

    So, regardless of your point of vuew, if you've got something to say, speak up.

    Cheers

    PS. OoGW: none of the quotes you've supplied suggest, in any way, that the deity being referenced looks anything like the God of the Bible.

    You may want to search for something which better supports your opinion...

    ReplyDelete
  58. Freed (Cynthia,)

    You said,
    "BTW...I'm mostly a lurker..formerly at Ray's. Hello everyone."

    You said "formerly."
    Are you suggesting you don't go there any longer?

    dale

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  59. hi dale...

    This sounds rude and crude, but now that Terry's not there anymore, there's nothing to laugh about. Nothing against Terry at all, but he did keep it interesting. For me at least. His zeal was over the top, to say the least but I give him kudos for trying.

    It's boring there now. AllFiredUp was the only one I really read, as far as trying to learn something in the Bible.

    I made a couple of friends but both of them left also. And you guys are interesting a lot of the time. If I don't like the subject or language or whatever on this site, I just don't read it, which is pretty much the way I felt at Ray's on some of his subjects. :)

    ReplyDelete
  60. Another quick comment before I have to go to church...I'm not here to preach (as if I could).

    As you know I ask questions. That's just me. But, also, when someone says something about what's in the Bible, I look it up and by doing so my study of the Bible has increased. This means, for me, that I'm still learning things and it's exciting to me.

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  61. Dale


    "Your beliefs are not ideas that your mind posesses. Your beliefs are ideas that posess your mind."
    ~dale

    Just a notice that intend to use that quote next time the opportunity arises. That's perfect.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Tangent: I found this in an old Pharyngula thread. Apparently, Muslims are more willing to accept scientific progress than our dear friend Ray is:

    http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=116328

    ReplyDelete
  63. DS,

    The concept for that phrase came from my late father. I modified it in several ways over the years. Then, about a month ago a blogger at another site informed me that the quote originated with "Robert bolton."

    I thought he meant Bush's representative to the UN that quit a while back but I can't find much to confirm that.

    In any event it does describe the way I feel about how people come to be posessed by irrational belief systems.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Freed,

    Thank you for a well thought out response. I appreciate the response.

    It's kinda funny how when we tell others about ourselves, it is hard to leave them, even here in anonimity.

    There are a couple passages in the book, "Catcher in the Rye" dealing with that.

    You state that we sometimes use some "blue" words around here and I would like to explain.

    As freethinkers, we are not encumbered with dogmatic religious prohibitions on our language.
    Words are quite distinct human constructions and to avoid the use of certain words has been historically used as a control mechanism.

    As a professional, I continue to be quite conservative about my use of certain terms in professional settings, but not always. There is a time and place for everything, and at a site where freethinkers prevail and their purpose is to point out the failings of organized religion, language is used quite freely and embarrases no one except people who choose to restrict their creativity.

    I admit that sometimes I like to go on a rant and use my whole arsenal of expletive deleteds just for the fun of it. It's a bit like letting out the child we all have within us.

    We all have to let that child out sometimes and if we don't, we can become bitter and regressive, imposing outdated mores upon ourselves.

    I had always been certain that every person had a friend or even group of friends with whom they could act totally rediculously bizarre (creative and imaginative if you will) with, really get crazy, and each understood it very well.
    But in some recent conversations I am hearing this is not the case.

    This is a condition that some people suffer that we refer to as "having a stick up your ass."

    There are certain words that we determine should not be used in cetain peer groups due to normal decorum and in respect of others beiefs. That is to be socially responsible.

    Having said all that, it is important for you to know that I would bet a months salary that no one here would describe you using a curse word for any reason.
    There are people who's sensibilities indicate to them that if someone uses a cus word in their presence, it is directed at them, but that is hardly ever the case, unless it is, in fact, intended that way. If you need to at some point, please recognize the difference.

    Also, if someone here does use a curse word to describe you, they will have me to answer to and the results won't be pretty. :>

    You have laid out your feelings and they should be respected, but... you can't expect people in a setting such as this to forego the use of all the words available to us in the pursuit of our identity as a group.
    Whoever comes here, comes here freely of their own volition and I will tell you there are some pretty smart cookies that hang around here, in my opinion and if you want their opinions, etc, you couldn't have come to a better place.

    Thanks for your consideration on this matter.
    dale

    ReplyDelete
  65. I myself tend to be pretty conservative with "foul language", as overuse tends to blunt its utility.

    That's just me, tho...

    ReplyDelete
  66. Whateverman,
    Yeah, I have has aquaintences that basically display their lack of vocabulary with constant use of certain words.
    It's irritating to say the least.
    Fuck 'em.

    ReplyDelete
  67. dale said...

    It's kinda funny how when we tell others about ourselves, it is hard to leave them, even here in anonimity.


    So, so true.

    I can't really say foul language offends me - exactly. I think I threw that in because I've seen where other Christians come here and blast you for it, and since I am a Christian I don't want anyone thinking that I will be the same way...you know...telling you how to act and what to think. That's just not me, and besides, you all already know how I believe.

    Some of the subjects here are just things I don't want in my head and some subjects are totally interesting. That would be what I would read here.

    I believe Christians are NOT supposed to judge unbelievers. So I do my best not to be judgemental or condemning. I'm not sure which post it was but someone coming in and "WARNING" everyone, in all caps, is just not acceptable witnessing in my opinion.

    Just letting you know that I'm not here to make waves...unless you want me to :p

    ReplyDelete
  68. Thanks Freed (Cynthia,)

    What was the sermon about this morning?

    ReplyDelete
  69. Well, we are beginning revival today and the sermon topic was "Saying Yes to God".

    The music was great and I enjoyed singing with the congregation rather than playing for them. (Until recently I was the keyboardist)

    The preacher was a visiting evangelist and he opened with some cute jokes and then, regretfully, put me to sleep. I hate when that happens but it really takes a dynamic speaker to hold my attention.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Do you have an actual band, or is it just keys + vocals?

    ReplyDelete
  71. We have 2 guitars, 1 bass guitar, drums, keyboard, piano, flute, organ. Our music man wants more instruments but no one is volunteering their talents - other than tons of vocalists.

    I really miss playing for the services.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Check out our new website:

    www.fbcbeebe.com


    Our music man's son designed it. You can tell by the music on it that we are a little contemporary

    ReplyDelete
  73. Cynthia,

    Too bad the sermon was boring.

    My wife is an electrician by day but she is also a singer, guitar playing songwriter, motivational speaker by night and weekends.

    I am a hopeless introvert and she is an outgoing extrovert so that balances things out pretty well.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Why don't you play for the services any more?

    ReplyDelete
  75. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Cynthia,
    The music sounds like you guys are technically quite accomplished. Nicely done.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Our music man's son designed it. You can tell by the music on it that we are a little contemporary

    Nice. I've always found the stereotypical vocalist/keyboard setup to be uninspiring.

    Plus, I'm a drummer - there are few things I dislike more than a glorified click track backing up real people :)

    EDIT: pasted the wrong quote

    ReplyDelete
  78. I never would have believed it of you, dale.

    Funny how you can just let loose in this type of setting, isn't it? I know because I am also an introvert. All my husbands were the opposite.

    It was weemaryanne who pegged me when she said "Furthermore, we can tell from your writing that you're not accustomed to discussing either the things you don't know or the things you profess to believe".

    Well, if it shows here in writing you can imagine how it is for me in real! Writing in this way feels like I've had all my skin peeled off.

    That, btw is the reason I go by freed and not Cynthia now.

    Anyway, you are doing a bang-up job of hiding your introvertedness...if that's a word.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Freed said: It was weemaryanne who pegged me when she said "Furthermore, we can tell from your writing that you're not accustomed to discussing either the things you don't know or the things you profess to believe".

    Well, if it shows here in writing you can imagine how it is for me in real! Writing in this way feels like I've had all my skin peeled off.


    Well Freed, all i can say is this: feel free to ask/say whatever you want here. We've got Christians, deists, atheists and plain ol' seekers - the only common thread being frustration at people who aren't interested in thinking.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Sorry I missed your question dale.

    Well I bought the keyboard with the provision that I would be the one to play it.

    The keyboard was hooked up to the main sound system. For the 3 years that I played it, the sound guys, after morning practice would forget to turn the keyboard back on for the service so I'm sitting there playing a dead keyboard. Not only did this make me mad, I dreaded being involved every Sunday and it ruined my worship.

    The music man bought speakers so I could control it at the keyboard, but the sound still went thru the main system.

    After much complaining, on my part, I just decided maybe God had not intended for me to be the one to play it.

    The deciding factor came last year when I got a pinched nerve in my right shoulder and it left me with diminished use of the fingers on my right hand. I even had to change the way I hold a pen to write, and then I feel like I have very little control of it.

    So there you have it. My sad story. Really, as miserable as I was in that situation, I really do miss playing. When I lived in Texas I was the organist at my church there. In high school I was the pianist for the school choir...so....it's just really in my blood. That and singing, which is something I also used to do.

    I'm glad I have a life to look back on because right now its pretty uneventful :D

    ReplyDelete
  81. Freed,
    Being introverted doesn't have much to do with writing and communicating the written word. Or doesn't even impair my career.

    Introverts like me just shun most social situations and value time by ourselves.

    Introverts get their energy from within themselves and prefer being
    alone as opposed to getting into social situations with the small talk, etc.

    Extroverts get their energy from others and they must have it.

    I am very accomplished at fitting into social situations when my wife drags me out from time to time, but I am kinda faking it.

    Introversion should not be confused with some psycological conditions where a person has problems fitting into a group. They want to, but can't pull it off.
    Introverts can easily do it, they just don't want it or need it.

    My wife sent me an article she had been reading a few years ago, "care and feeding of your introvert."
    I am lucky that she took a logical look at that and it did help smooth out some rough spots we'd run into from time to time.

    Because introverts are a definite miority she bought me a framed picture to hang in my den and the caption says, "Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting."

    Where my wife has literally hundreds of friends, my best friends are two of my old cronies that live in the area, Possum and Boo-Boo.
    Boo-Boo cals me Yogi.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Thanks dale and whateverman.


    dale, you said
    "Introverts like me just shun most social situations and value time by ourselves."


    Ahhh...that is me 100%. Thanks for that info. I thought maybe something was wrong with me. I had never bothered to look up the definition of introvert. Very enlightening.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Can one be in between an introvert and an extrovert? I get my energy from within myself and I need a fair bit of alone time to "recharge". However I also like to talk a lot (I'll talk about pretty much anything with anyone) and in general I like knowing a lot about other people's lives even if it is through small talk. I also like working with other people. So I don't know what the heck I am.

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  84. Really, as miserable as I was in that situation, I really do miss playing. When I lived in Texas I was the organist at my church there. In high school I was the pianist for the school choir...so....it's just really in my blood. That and singing, which is something I also used to do.

    I'll make a suggestion...

    When I was young (~15), I got involved in playing drums for a pit crew for an organization that put on stage shows for charitable causes. We rehearsed in a church, but the plays themselves were mostly secular & harmless.

    That was a fantastic experience for me. We often were involved in church affairs, but the shows themselves were stressful, fun and immensely satisfying.

    You might find an outlet for your playing if you looked around for local theatrical organizations. Even playing for a kids' play can be a lot of fun (and work).

    ReplyDelete
  85. Freed,
    you said'
    "So there you have it. My sad story."

    Yes, indeed, we all have burdens to bear and limitations to contend with.

    I hope you have a keyboard at home to play on. The only instrument I ever pick up any more is the guitar.

    I know all the chords but I am technically incompetent.
    I quit my degree in music because I hate, no, I abhor practicing hour after hour.
    That's how I ended up getting into engineering.

    At this time in my life I yearn for things to be uneventful, but my career keeps me challenged.

    Thanks for sharing with me.

    dale

    ReplyDelete
  86. SS,

    You asked,
    "Can one be in between an introvert and an extrovert?"

    Absolutely!
    That is why I refer to myself as a hopeless introvert. I'm a small minority. Many people are more balanced like you.

    The majority are extros. I have problems with them because they are talking even if they have nothing to talk about and it drives me nuts.

    Especially the ones that are constantly talking about their "things" rather than "ideas."

    ReplyDelete
  87. Great idea whateverman. This is a college town. I could probably find a place to put my talent. I never thought of branching out!

    skeptical...I don't know what you'd call yourself. All my kids are the same as you. I'm jealous of them all.

    Thank you for sharing also dale.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Thanks for the feedback.

    I find I often have cool/strange "ideas" I want to talk about, but they probably wouldn't be socially acceptable to just randomly bring up with an acquaintance. I think that's one of the reasons I like this blog so much. I've actually destroyed a potential friendship or two bringing up a religious or political topic too soon in the relationship. I think people in general don't like to talk about that stuff :-(

    I do have some very non-extroverted quirks, like I don't like people in my house or my personal space. I know this sounds mean, but I despise guests. I like people, I just don't want them in my room or somewhere personal. Does anyone else feel like that or am I crazy? Is that an introverted thing?

    ReplyDelete
  89. Freed,
    " I thought maybe something was wrong with me."

    Nope. You are normal within the range of society. I am lucky. In my second psych course in college we studied this and I almost fell out of my chair when I figured out what was "wrong with me."

    I verily ran to a phone to call my Mom because she sometime worried why I spent so much time alone as a kid.

    There is a great test to take on-line, the Myers-Briggs. Type that into Google and go to the wiki article first.
    Another site will give you the test for free. It's quite interesting. It will give you your type. I am an INTJ which makes up about two percent of the population.

    ReplyDelete
  90. I know this sounds mean, but I despise guests. I like people, I just don't want them in my room or somewhere personal. Does anyone else feel like that or am I crazy? Is that an introverted thing

    It's introverted only if this desire to have have people there is for reasons of privacy or 'personal space'

    IMHO of course.

    I'm very introverted, but not shy - I simply prefer to be alone alot of the time. That being said, we're going camping with a bunch of my friends in New York State this weekend, and I'm *really* looking forward to it

    ReplyDelete
  91. dale said: I am an INTJ which makes up about two percent of the population.

    Ha! Neat, so am I...

    ReplyDelete
  92. Whateverman,

    That's interesting. It sounds like you get your energy from being alone and then you can use that energy to do social stuff like camping. Personally I prefer not to live with other people, even for a short time like a sleepover. This kinda scares me a bit because I don't want to end up one of those people that live alone in the middle of nowhere, never see daylight, talk to inanimate objects, and live with 40 cats. You know what I mean?

    Dale and whateverman,

    I took the test, I'm an INTJ too...what the hell? Maybe I'm a faker extrovert lol or maybe I like to routinely rebel against my nature. Very strange.....

    Do you think blogging is an INTJ thing? I wonder how many other Raytractors fall under that label.

    ReplyDelete
  93. ... and it appears that the careers I've chosen to-date *all* match up with this.

    Very cool - I had forgotten about this index...

    ReplyDelete
  94. SS,

    "I find I often have cool/strange "ideas" I want to talk about, but they probably wouldn't be socially acceptable to just randomly bring up with an acquaintance."

    Oh boy, I know the feeling.

    "I think people in general don't like to talk about that stuff :-("

    Some people avoid the obvious like the plague if it's displeasing to them. I like the tough questions.

    "I do have some very non-extroverted quirks, like I don't like people in my house or my personal space. I know this sounds mean, but I despise guests. I like people, I just don't want them in my room or somewhere personal. Does anyone else feel like that or am I crazy?"

    Definitely not crazy. I am like that too except where it comes to family since I really don't have to "entertain" them or feel like I have to "serve" them. I also have the luxury that if I tire of the gab, I'll merely retire to my den to get some work done (they understand.)
    For me though, when my wife invites people for an occasion, I don't mind because she takes the ultimate respossibility (but I love to cook for them.)

    "Is that an introverted thing?"
    Probably not as much as it is personal preference for not wanting the resposibility for entertaining someone and being protective of your space. Quite normal.

    ReplyDelete
  95. SS,

    "Do you think blogging is an INTJ thing? I wonder how many other Raytractors fall under that label."

    Good question. I have no definitive answer yet, but I suspect that bloggers at all sites fall in the normal sample and percent. But, I do think there are some blogs that attract more I's than E's and some attract more E's than I's, say like MySpace, etc.

    ReplyDelete
  96. That's interesting. It sounds like you get your energy from being alone and then you can use that energy to do social stuff like camping.
    In some ways this is accurate (for me), but in others, not so much. There are certain "spheres" of interests where it applies: musical performance, camping, hiking, cooking, discussion.

    In others, not so much. My friends and I all grew up in a place where there wasn't much to do except drink :) But if we're having a purely drinking event (keg party, etc), I'm not always keen to join. Pure social situations aren't that attractive to me


    Personally I prefer not to live with other people, even for a short time like a sleepover. This kinda scares me a bit because I don't want to end up one of those people that live alone in the middle of nowhere, never see daylight, talk to inanimate objects, and live with 40 cats. You know what I mean?

    Yep - I can relate.

    Funny story... I live very far from my job (1.5 hour commute each way) because of the isolation and quiet. It gets a bit lonely out here, tho, so I kept thinking I needed a pet. No matter how much I tried to imagine otherwise, I couldn't imagine getting a dog (which is what I really wanted). I'm away from the house for too long.

    My Mom's always been pretty insightful. A few years ago, she took me to a cat shelter, where I eventually adopted 2 near-feral kittens. It's turned out to be one of the better ideas to come from my family.

    But to date, I'm almost embarassed to admit I live by myself with 2 cats :) I'm only a few decades (and a gender) away from being that crazy old Cat Lady.

    ---

    Back on target, though. I like being with people depending on the situation. I always end up wanting some alone time to decompress, however...

    ReplyDelete
  97. Dale,

    Good point, extroverts definitely need myspace and facebook.

    Whateverman,

    "But to date, I'm almost embarassed to admit I live by myself with 2 cats :) I'm only a few decades (and a gender) away from being that crazy old Cat Lady."

    I wish I lived on my own and had a couple more pets, I'm afraid to admit that makes me a wannabe crazy cat lady. I'm studying for a science career too so I can just imagine in a decade from now driving home from the lab to be greeted by 20 cats and some object, like a clock, I will have named Steve (or something like that) and tell them how my day went.

    "I like being with people depending on the situation. I always end up wanting some alone time to decompress, however... "

    That's me for sure.

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  98. It's like the crazy cat lady thing scares me and appeals to me at the same time. Or maybe I'm scared that it appeals to me. Very confusing....

    ReplyDelete
  99. Yes, it's important not to confuse introversion with "Avoidant Personality Disorder."

    Where Introverts chose not to socialize People like this have a fear of being judged negatively by others and suffer a high degree of discomfort in social situations and suffer from low self esteem.

    ReplyDelete
  100. SS,
    When you get to the point where you have ten cats you will be declared legally insane and be branded as the crazy old cat man.

    ReplyDelete
  101. By the way, sometimes when my wife or kids do drag me off to some social event I actually do end up having fun.

    ReplyDelete
  102. I am ISFJ and have a myspace account!! What does that make me?

    Actually I rarely visit the space I made. I go to see what my kids are doing. Maybe I'm living vicariously.

    I feel the same as the 3 of you do about having guests. If its my kids, no problem but I don't want others in my home on a regular basis.

    My brother says I live in a box and wont venture out. Well, I'm not the cat lady but I'm fine in my box...and always have been.

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  103. I took a test in my personality course that labeled me "avoidant", I don't have low self esteem though I just have trouble trusting people sometimes in certain situations and getting too close to them. My psychology knowledge makes me think this has something to do with the fact that my primary caregiver (my mum) drifted in and out of my life (i.e she wasn't always there or responsive to my needs). I guess this is meshing with my introvert personality. I'm a very friendly and warm person who's eager to meet new people though, so I guess my avoidance is low on the scale.

    "When you get to the point where you have ten cats you will be declared legally insane and be branded as the crazy old cat man."

    LOL I can't wait!

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  104. Freed,

    "My brother says I live in a box and wont venture out. Well, I'm not the cat lady but I'm fine in my box...and always have been."

    People say I need to get out more too. I usually only go out when I go to school or volunteer somewhere. I like doing that stuff I just need alone time to recharge. I think other people are mostly extroverts and have a hard time understanding that introverts need their alone time.

    ReplyDelete
  105. SS,
    LOL.
    My wife is great with animals but I keep telling her those dogs are exploiting her and seem to be the most successful species on earth because they get free room and board, never work, are constantly entertained, and basically lay around all the time licking their private parts. (I do get arguments from cat lovers on that)

    I think dogs are more exploitive than cats because they always pretend they are glad to see you but they are only glad to see you because they know they will now be fed and entertained... Bastards.

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  106. Freed,

    "Myspace."
    The SF part tells the story on that! Sensing/ feeling.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Dale,

    It's true my dog only loves me when I have food or when I'm petting her (if she's in the mood) :-(

    I also hate when my dog does that thing where she sits on her butt, puts her back legs up and then drags her ass across the carpet with her front legs. It's a great way to get rid of company though hehe. Maybe my dog does care about me after all.

    ReplyDelete
  108. SS,
    Tooo funny!
    We have a female that does that too.

    ReplyDelete
  109. SS,

    Ok I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at that one.

    Thanks loads. How do you get rid of mental images?

    ReplyDelete
  110. Freed,
    You said,
    "Actually I rarely visit the space I made. I go to see what my kids are doing. Maybe I'm living vicariously."

    You are definitely out on the edge like me honey!

    ReplyDelete
  111. I went to my myspace.

    You must be right dale. It seems its all geared toward my family and my growing up years (the music). I never noticed it before.

    ReplyDelete
  112. OK, so I am setting around drinking imported beer, washng it down with absinthe, toking some killer HG and having sex with all the women that come around when my wife isn't home and I'm thinking, what could be the problem with this? Just sayin.........

    ReplyDelete
  113. Dale,

    Sounds like you had an eventful weekend. The most I did was eat too much food and get sleepy.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Nothing wrong with that, Freed.

    I just want you to know that, as long as you are making the choice, and not being coerced by anyone.

    I also happen to be a frustrated herpitologist so lots of my free time I like to hunt for frogs and snakes. Dogs and cats are OK but I have a special place in my "heart" for snakes. Very independant.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Freed said...
    Your imagination?

    Hey, I drank two cans of Bud last nite... Hmpf.

    ReplyDelete
  116. No, I'm all for imagination. I have a vivid one.

    Are you a mean drunk? Had some things I could say about snakes but don't really know your humor yet. :P

    ReplyDelete
  117. SS,
    I got home from work on Fri evening and never left my property.
    I own a hilltop up here in NW PA and I run the dogs several times a day, putter around the place and chill.
    I got out of going to an anniversary on my wifes side yesterday due to the reason that I was slipping into a deep depression and could not assure her that I would not cause a scene.

    Sometimes she doesn't let me get away with that horseshit but she usually just laughs and asks if I need her to drop me off at the psyche unit as she goes by the hospital.
    Remember though, she knows her introvert!

    ReplyDelete
  118. Freed,
    You asked,
    "Are you a mean drunk? Had some things I could say about snakes but don't really know your humor yet. :P" Funny!

    You are talking to a guy who has never laid a hand on any of my five kids in any manner, nor my wife or anyone else, except...
    well young guys do some stupis shit.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Easy though.
    I have captured thousands of snakes over the years and I only killed two of them that I know of, and they were when I was very young.

    ReplyDelete
  120. "Sometimes she doesn't let me get away with that horseshit but she usually just laughs and asks if I need her to drop me off at the psyche unit as she goes by the hospital."

    That would freak me out. I have this fear that if I ever ended up at a psyche hospital, for whatever reason, they would never let me out regardless of how sane I acted. But maybe I watch too many movies.

    Dale,

    What kind of snake are around your area?

    ReplyDelete
  121. Oh that's right. I remember you said something to allfiredup about that.

    Good that you didn't have to do that with your kids and even greater for your wife. Sincerely.

    I'm sure she appreciates that about you and I could give her a zillion reasons to appreciate you even more. Not everyone is so lucky.

    And with that I bid you good night. I've enjoyed the chat with everyone today.
    Take care.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Freed,
    Lest I perish of curiosity, please tell me about the snakes.

    ReplyDelete
  123. dale said...

    "...so lots of my free time I like to hunt for frogs and snakes... and
    cats are OK but I have a special place in my "heart" for snakes.


    Looking for lost family members?

    ;)


    That wasn't worth perishing for
    lol

    ReplyDelete
  124. Took the test. I'm an INTJ.

    I think it's not blogging that attracts "Rational Masterminds"s (INTJ's), but Raytracting!

    I wonder what personality type Ray and his fans are? That would be an interesting comparison...

    ReplyDelete
  125. Took the test. I'm an INTJ.

    I think it's not blogging that attracts "Rational Masterminds"s (INTJ's), but Raytracting!

    I wonder what personality type Ray and his fans are? That would be an interesting comparison...


    This is actually quite interesting. Quasar, could you create a thread about this, and see how other Raytractor's fare? I'd be curious to see if the trend continues, or if it's an abberation of this particular discussion.

    If you missed it, I ended up being an INTJ as well.

    I personally think Ray and his fans will probably lean more towards extroversion. Not that it's a requirement, but you have to have a certain desire to be the center of attention, at least, in order to be a good evangelist...

    ReplyDelete
  126. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  127. So that's 4 raytractors so far (including myself) that are INTJ's. Right? It would be interesting to see what the other raytractors are and Ray's fans as well. I know Ray himself is probably off the scale for some extreme personality type. Apparently INTJ's have a thing for being strong willed. Maybe it's a common personality type for people who like to debate.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Comfort is an ENFP. No doubt about it.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Remember though that the M-B tst turns out to be somewhat sujective when administered to yourself.

    Yet, it pobably does get you homed into introspection more than someone who has never considered doing it.

    ReplyDelete
  130. dale, if that was you that removed your reply to me...sorry, but it made it to my email.

    hahaha...guess I deserve it.
    so funny!





    at SS:

    "So that's 4 raytractors so far (including myself) that are INTJ's"



    And I'm the different one. :)

    ReplyDelete
  131. Freed,

    "And I'm the different one. :)"

    Good, we need you because it looks like this blog may be overrun with INTJ's. You're part of our variety :-)

    ReplyDelete
  132. Always nice to be needed.

    Me on one side of the room facing 60 intellectuals. That makes for great dreams tonight. :P

    ReplyDelete
  133. SS,
    You asked,
    "Dale,
    What kind of snake are around your area?"

    Happily, and regretably, there are only three poisenous snakes in this area, the Timber Rattler, the Copperhead, and the Massasagua, locally called a Black Snapper.

    We have no poisenous watersnakes but many non- poisenous species like Black Racers, Ring necks, Eastern Garderer, Ribbon snakes, and more.

    The Timber Rattlers come in yellow and black phase out of the same litter.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Freed,
    You said,
    "Me on one side of the room facing 60 intellectuals. That makes for great dreams tonight. :P"

    I think you like being challenged and introspect more than you know.

    ReplyDelete
  135. I always wanted to own a snake, there aren't any where I live....

    I found this:

    So true, for me especially points 2,4, 5, and 6

    ReplyDelete
  136. Freed,
    We are all inclusive here.

    You can go ahead and say really bad words and stuff and we won't throw you out.

    Go ahead. Say a bad word. Do it. You'll feel freed. C'mon. say a bad word.........just one..

    ReplyDelete
  137. Freed,
    If you are not comfortable with some of the more offensive cusswords, just start out with typing the word d-u-n-g.

    Go ahead. Then we'll get more progressive.

    OK now. go ahead.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Freed,

    Please let me assure you that very few of us here are "INTELLECTUALS."

    Just free thinkers using logic and reason.

    I would never compare myself to the people that I consider intellectuals. That would be absurd to my sensibilities.

    ReplyDelete
  139. mmmmm...well crap.
    (That's me living dangerously.)


    You are correct,dale, I do not mind being challenged and introspect is me all around.


    Speaking of saying bad words: I really do believe, and may be wrong, that all of you would hold me to a different standard if I did use bad language. Not higher or lower...just different because I am a professing Christian.

    But, my not saying bad words has as much to do with being lady like as it does with being a Christian.
    I'm not some little soft spoken, feminine, can't hear anything bad type of woman. I'm not crazy about hearing a man use it, but for a woman, it reduces her femininity - IMHO.

    I have in the past said things when I was mad, but really I just never developed the habit of using foul language in my normal conversation. I wish I could control my other habits just as well.

    Most of my family talks trash..except when they are around me. Same for smoking even though I used to smoke. I've never said a word to them about the way they talk around me or the smoking. It's just a matter of respect I think. But, I don't understand why if they talk clean around me, and can control it at that time, why not control it all the time.

    These are just my thoughts. No judgement intended.

    ReplyDelete
  140. SS,

    Snakes make the best pets. I have a royal python now and I am planning on getting a jungle carpet python soon.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Freed,
    You said.
    "These are just my thoughts. No judgement intended."

    Well thought out and I respect every word that you wrote in that last comment.
    We all have those issues with our families and if you think about it, it's not a big deal.

    But, you did write the word "Crap."

    That definitely qualifies you as a formal Raytractor.

    Just for your edification, I have more questions than I have answers, too!

    ReplyDelete
  142. mjarsulic said...
    SS,

    Snakes make the best pets. I have a royal python now and I am planning on getting a jungle carpet python soon.

    ------------

    I know what you are saing there, but I, personally could never hold a snake in captivity over an few hours. But I have a long and loving relationship with snakes since I was very young.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Freed said: I really do believe, and may be wrong, that all of you would hold me to a different standard if I did use bad language. Not higher or lower...just different because I am a professing Christian.

    Speaking only for myself, it would be situational. It would depend on what you were talking about, whether the colorful language might have been justified in some way, whether it was effective - and which words you used.

    In other words, I don't care one iota if you're a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Mormon, atheist, deist. You'll be judged by the quality and entertainment value of what you say, regardless of whether you used one word over the other.

    ReplyDelete
  144. dale,

    I know what you mean. I have no problem holding a snake that was captive born in captivity since it is doubtful they could survive on their own. However, snakes born in the wild should never be kept as pets.

    ReplyDelete
  145. "Just for your edification, I have more questions than I have answers, too!"


    Misery loves company! Thanks. :)

    ReplyDelete
  146. Freed,
    Thanks for saying the word, "Crap."

    I think that brought us a lot closer together. I get nervous around people who damn me to hell for saying a word like that.

    Nite,
    dale

    ReplyDelete
  147. MJ'
    "However, snakes born in the wild should never be kept as pets."

    Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  148. whateverman,

    I understand completely what you mean, logically. Words are just words, but idle is idle.

    God says He will judge every idle word I speak. I should have said that to begin with, because that is the core reason I try to watch what I say. Habit and femininity take a back seat to that.

    You said my speech will be judged on quality and entertainment value and I agree with that. Here. But, ultimately, I care most about how God will judge the quality of my speech/conversations. So, I just don't use foul or colorful language. I do say crap a lot. When I was a kid and my mother would get mad she would sharply say "GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!". I'm not so sure how well that goes over.

    ReplyDelete
  149. dale...you make me laugh.

    Seriously.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Freed,
    I do hope you are aware the the word crap, that you used is a gateway word and you will ultimately be saying shit instead.

    Then you will surely see yourself going to hell.

    ReplyDelete
  151. I'm an INTJ as well. I'm also an engineer so I guess I chose the right career.

    ReplyDelete
  152. If I said that word I would not go to hell.

    ReplyDelete
  153. To those of you who have dogs that drag their butts on the carpet:

    Anal glands need squeezing! You can do it yourself or take the dog to the groomer.

    Dale- or anyone:

    I need some advise. You seem very much like my son. He is very smart, kind, funny, witty, and engaging but he does not like being around people. He is not socially awkward or dorky. He is a good looking guy. I don't get it. Can you help explain it to me?

    Thanks

    ReplyDelete
  154. Milo said: Dale- or anyone:

    I need some advise. You seem very much like my son. He is very smart, kind, funny, witty, and engaging but he does not like being around people. He is not socially awkward or dorky. He is a good looking guy. I don't get it. Can you help explain it to me?


    My Mom and Sis have been saying the same thing of me for decades :) Whether my situation is similar to your son's, I can't know for sure - but I'll pipe in anyhoo:

    I get frustrated when I'm around people (for long periods of time). I rarely get to engage in the kind of thought/discussion that *I* prefer - and I find a lot of what's being said to be either boring, childish, shallow, ignorant or simply unimportant.

    Before you assume I'm saying that I'm better than everyone else, I'm going to tell you what the real problem is (with me): I don't find myself being able to relate to others easily. I can sympathize and empathize and talk to all kinds of people - but being unable to find someone I can identify with makes me tired.

    For me, also I refuse to seek out like-minded folks just to be able to "belong" somewhere. I don't feel an insistent need to surround myself with a group of people with viewpoints similar to mine - it's just mental/emotional masturbation (imho).

    I don't entirely understand why I prefer to be by myself. A small part of me feels it's a bit unhealthy, but most of me finds it very comfortable. Really, that's the perfect word to describe it: I'm very comfortable spending time on my own.

    There are times when I want to be around people, but I've found that they're much less frequent than other people seem to experience.

    I'm not sure who I was writing with here, but someone mentioned wanting to live alone but having to live with a roommate. Once I went to college, I had one or more roommates constantly from the age of 19 through 32; I wasn't able live on my own for 13 years. It was tough at times, but I had fun too. All that aside, now that I have my own place (still renting, can't aford a house here in MA), it's been freakin wonderful :)

    ReplyDelete
  155. Milo,
    Your son is an introvert. The main problem with that is when a person doesn't understand that is just his personality type and he worries about it.

    Let him know you now nderstand and he will be fine.

    /d

    ReplyDelete
  156. Woohoo! My most successful blog posting ever!

    Of course, we only got about four lurkers saying hi and one of god's watchman decided to start rambling about the Constitution, or something, and derailed the thread for the first 50 posts, but a success nonetheless.

    So, a big welcome to:

    markg,
    revenant,
    pete_xrk and
    magma42 (and any other that I missed)

    And a special hello to freed (Cynthia), too!

    Also, I'm INTJ

    ReplyDelete
  157. Milo said...

    "I need some advise. You seem very much like my son. He is very smart, kind, funny, witty, and engaging but he does not like being around people. He is not socially awkward or dorky. He is a good looking guy. I don't get it. Can you help explain it to me?"

    Sounds like he's introverted. These are the things I find, as an introvert, help me to be at my social best:

    #1 I find I can only be at my social best if I've had enough "alone time". My alone time has to be very specific, in my room, away from other people (even family members).

    #2 The social stuff I enjoy best I like to do in short intervals throughout the week so I don't get drained. For example, I would rather volunteer somewhere for 3 hours twice a week then 6 hours once a week.

    #3 I'm often a happy social person if I've been informed of a social event (this includes people coming to the house) ahead of time so I can prepare to be drained of energy.

    For me, when these conditions are met I become a warm, friendly, sociable person that enjoys being with others before I need to take a break and be alone again.

    Hope that helped.

    ReplyDelete
  158. You can find a good article on introversion here:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200303/rauch

    ReplyDelete
  159. @ expatmatt - thanks for the special welcome :)

    @ milo - whateverman, SS and dale summed up, for me, what an introvert is. I felt as if whateverman should have signed my name on his last post.

    I work as office manager in a church, dealing with way too many people daily for my introvertedness. It's a real drain on me. When I go home at night I fall apart and just hope my grandkids will let me breathe for about an hour before they storm in. Attending church is not a major deal, but the social functions are. I don't join in. They can all eat without me.

    Dale explained it very nicely, saying there's nothing wrong with me, after me thinking forever that there was.

    ReplyDelete
  160. @ dale.

    Thanks for the link to that article.

    I emailed it to my boss with a note to stop asking me to be friendlier.

    I'm serious.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Thank you to everyone who responded to my question. Dale- good article. It's reassuring to hear there are others like him. I still have trouble grasping the idea of introverted. I always equated that term with shy or withdrawn in an unhealthy way. I going to have to give this some thought. Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  162. Man, I miss out. I bet this thread has already been abandoned.

    I like my space, and I like being in my space. I've known to back out of social situations and to stay home alone on Friday nights, or if I go anywhere, I usually prefer spending time with two or three people at one (my regular group of friends live in a giant house downtown, and there are four of them. The place is silent, so I go sit there and we converse for hours on end and nerd out. I also understand my introvert cousin better than anybody else in my family, including his mother.

    I don't care for nightclubs or concerts or big loud groups most of the time... however...

    I've been in the Toronto Rocky Horror Picture Show shadow cast for eleven years, and their show is pure insanity. I am an active swing dancer, so I'm around crowds and new people all the time. I've acted, done improv, hosted radio shows. My job (which, admittedly, is driving me completely crazy for being this way) has me sitting in an office lobby connected to a huge mall dealing with hundreds of stupid people all day. One of my favourite jobs was as a bus tour guide. I'm forced into being social and am good at it and enjoy it often, but confuse the hell out of people when I insist on having for nights a week alone or with one or two people (preferably one with whom I can make out/get naked with because boobies are awesome ;-P) and get really, really antsy if I don't have my space.

    I really can't tell if I should be one or the other. I'm confused.

    ReplyDelete
  163. By the way, said current job also wo't give me a functioning keyboard apparatus. Sory aou he typos, mot aren't my fault.

    See? Keys stop working.

    ReplyDelete
  164. theshaggy,

    The way I rationalize my more social side is that I still need to escape and be alone and I can't stay at a party or some other big social event for long. I think that is the defining characteristic of an introvert.

    "The place is silent, so I go sit there and we converse for hours on end and nerd out."

    You're luck you can find a group of people to do that with. I often get frustrated with my peers because most of them can't think very deeply and they only talk about the superficial (i.e "how's the weather", "class was boring", etc.). That's fine and we can still have cool/funny conversations, but sometime I want to share a piece of my brain with them. I take a risk in doing so because sometimes it makes me look like a freak. Also I love to debate stuff, but most all my friends are other women. I don't want to sound sexist but I don't think most women like to debate. They often take the fact that I don't agree with them 100% waaaaayyyy too personally. They also aren't anywhere near as skeptical as I am so they don't understand the way I think.

    ReplyDelete
  165. SS, totally get you there. I can actually spend time at parties and in groups, provided that for a little while I can sit in a corner with someone and have a good conversation with them. Either that or get drunk. Then I don't mind so much ;-)

    My friends and I will gossip, will complain, will "small talk," but invariably the one other guy and I will start getting into heated discussions about religion or politics that can and will last hours on end (I'm atheist, he's the former pagan introducing me to Buddhism). We will play Devil's Advocate on each other, too. Also, I like friends who will listen to my hair-brained ideas and will share their own. Makes for awesome comedy.

    As for women not debating, I'm sure this is true. I once had a girlfriend who refused to argue with me about things, but would hold it in until she would yell at me for treating her opinions like dirt. All I wanted was for her to argue me on it, really, and do defend her held position on something (something as simple as a different opinion on a television show, for instance). Since then I have insisted on dating girls with opinions, and it does me so much better. It's hard to find, though.

    ReplyDelete
  166. That reminds me of this one time I was debating this one friend, a girl, and it was a totally calm debate, it wasn't heated or angry at all. The friend I was debating got really upset and I had to find her afterward, apologize, and explain that I really didn't care if she thought homeopathy was a science, I was just curious if she could defend it. I felt like shit, but after talking it over with the friend I think the problem is a lot of women think if you disagree with their opinions, logic, etc. that you also disagree with them as a person, or think less of them as people. I find that line Matt, from the atheist experience, uses sums things up quite nicely: you can respect a person without respecting their beliefs.

    ReplyDelete
  167. My friends and I will gossip, will complain, will "small talk," but invariably the one other guy and I will start getting into heated discussions about religion or politics that can and will last hours on end (I'm atheist, he's the former pagan introducing me to Buddhism). We will play Devil's Advocate on each other, too. Also, I like friends who will listen to my hair-brained ideas and will share their own. Makes for awesome comedy.

    As for women not debating, I'm sure this is true. I once had a girlfriend who refused to argue with me about things, but would hold it in until she would yell at me for treating her opinions like dirt. All I wanted was for her to argue me on it, really, and do defend her held position on something (something as simple as a different opinion on a television show, for instance). Since then I have insisted on dating girls with opinions, and it does me so much better. It's hard to find, though.


    Who are you, and how did you get inside my head!

    ReplyDelete
  168. By the way, I'm gonna float this one out for the introverts.

    I have a really intelligent friend I've known for 25+ years. He's a college professor, and we share similar introverted characteristics. Due to his background, he's got more experience in psychology - and sent me a book that I found interesting.

    It's called the Highly Sensitive Person. After reading it a few times, I've come to the conclusion that there are DEFINITELY some things I identify with, and a few I dont; the test indicated that I probably am an HSP.

    Some of my critique involves the author's tone - it's a bit touch-feely (for lack of a better descriptor). I don't

    I mention it as some of the stuff written in this thread remind me strongly of the author's ideas. it will probably be interesting enough even if you only want to understand the concept.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Arg...

    It's hard writing a book review while debugging a poorly-built .NET web service...

    ReplyDelete

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