I wanted to respond to something Ray said without posting on his uber censored blog. This sentence struck me since it was something I could not answer even as a christian.
Ray said: "If He created the human body, He can fix it when it breaks."
Except he doesn't, doctors, nurses, scientists, medical technology, etc. fix what god won't. That's why back in the day people rarely lived to see their forties. Did god hate people in the middle ages? As well, I find it very telling that god does not operate outside what is scientifically plausible. That's why people with amputated limbs don't have regeneration of those limbs no matter how much they love god. I know I'm bringing up that old "why won't god heal amputees?" argument, but I have yet to hear a good response. Anyone heard of or have a reasonable explanation??
I'm also curious if anyone reading has ever seriously tried to heal themselves with prayer, know someone who has, or had someone make them participate in a healing ritual. At the time did you think it worked? If at least one person has a story to share I'll share a story of my own.....
Yes I know I'm nosy and am bribing people for their personal info.
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Here's the best response I think think of (besides the obvious "God doesn't exist"):
ReplyDeleteGod's not in the business of solving our own problems for us.
Assuming he does exist (and I know that's a huge assumption), it should be patently obvious that he lets the laws of physics and nature determine what happens to us.
If you send your child off to school, but insist on holding his/her hand the entire time, the kid wont grow.
Oh, I'm not shy about sharing my story.
ReplyDeleteI have hypothyroidism. I was having a lot of problems with my thyroid medication at one time so I just stopped taking it. My heart went crazy and I was having very bizarre cardiac symptoms. I had so many tests run by different heart docs, had an EP study, a 64 slice view of the heart, a stress test which I could barely stand up for and nearly died during because of a drug they gave me that my heart couldn't handle....I mean I was in bad shape. None of them could figure out what the hell was causing the problems.
I prayed, prayed, prayed, prayed, ect. Nothing.
Finally, after having this go on for about a month and a half, one of the docs said 'Let's just try a beta blocker and see what happens.'
One dose and the problem was gone.
Now before some fundy jumps up on a cloud and starts saying 'See, Goddidit by using a pill!!!', please explain to me why prayer didn't fix the problem but a beta blocker did.
The old argument that a god is answering prayers through natural means doesn't cut it with me. If he were such a powerful god he would just answer the prayer and we wouldn't need the pill.
Come to think of it, if he were such a powerful god we wouldn't even need to pray, he'd just know what we needed and meet the need.
But then again, if he were really, really great, there'd be no need in the first place.
Btw, I went back on my thyroid medication. I won't ever go off it again.
Pardon typos, in a hurry.
Whateverman,
ReplyDeletegood point, I should have formed my question with the assumption that god exists.
'God's not in the business of solving our own problems for us."
Fairly logical, but where does god draw the line? If my kid was drowning it would be criminal to let them "solve the problem on their own".
OK so here's my "testimony" lol:
When I was little I had tumor and my parents brought me to our pastor. He and some other "elders" of the church laid hands on me and anointed me with oil. It was super creepy and I was told to pray....alot! Thinking back on the experience I think it put alot of pressure on me. It implied part of my outcome depended on how pious I was.
NM,
I'm glad you're alright now.
"I had so many tests..."
I know what that's like and it's the most frustrating thing when no one knows what's wrong with you. I couldn't even imagine what a stress test would be like though, especially if your heart was already stressed. I've heard that test is brutal even for people with perfectly working hearts.
"I'd tell her that he told me that she should do this and that and she would always believe me. "
ReplyDeleteWOW! Now that is really gullible. Someone could easily take advantage of that.
To be honest, I started questioning things when I was in high school. During a sermon. The preacher was talking about how we are never actually in control of our lives, that either Jesus or Satan is at the wheel. That didn't ever set right with me. That would negate free will. I watched around the audience, it was a youth thing, at all these other kids just nodding and going along with it. Not even thinking to question it. So I started to have my doubts then.
ReplyDeleteGrowing up though in a Christian family in the bible belt, I still went to church and never really was able to question anything out loud. I went to college and stopped going to church. Until my 3rd year of school, where my parents convinced me to go to one of their friends church. So I started going again. I then transferred schools and stopped going again.
Graduated from college with a Management Information Systems degree, right as the dot com bubble burst. So the market was flooded with experienced people willing to work for graduate pay. Moved back to my parents, eventually got a job and my own house, but started to go to church with my parents again.
Met my future wife, who was and is still pentecostal. Dated her and went to church with her, never could understand the crazy pentecostal stuff always looked like attention seeking to me.
She divorces me. I go through a bad skid as most people do in situations like that. I started dealing with 419 scams. At that time, someone pointed me to examples of psychics and how they were scammers. Read what I could on that. Started reading Derren Brown's book "Tricks of the Mind" after watching his show on scifi channel(oh scifi why can't you bring that back!!!). It put into perspective for me if psychics are just confirmation bias then why can't religion be also. Started me thinking again. I started doing research and reading and learning. Then I basically end up as you see me now. A long road but I feel better for traveling it.
SS,
ReplyDeleteIt was a very weird feeling. One minute I was standing there on the treadmill, the next I had a falling feeling (I was falling, but couldn't do anything about it), and then I was on a gurney.
I thought I was either dying or already dead, but I was so confused I didn't know which.
Very weird experience.
I can do 90 minutes on the elliptical with fairly good resistance like it was cake, but that's because my heart is fine now.
Oh yeah, I prayed during my divorce, after, and even tried to quote scripture to my ex, but it was all to no avail. I am glad it was to no avail now. My ex called me a couple of months ago and started to admit it was her fault the marriage failed but at the last second claimed that Satan was attacking her and our marriage. I am so glad I am divorced.
ReplyDeleteNM,
ReplyDeleteThat must have been so scary :-0
Beamstalk,
Blaming satan for stuff is such a cop out.
SS,
ReplyDeleteYou can imagine how hard it was for me not to laugh at her on the phone right then. At first I was like, wow, she is actually taking responsibility for her actions. Then the Satan thing came out of nowhere.
I hate that, when someone is saying all the right things and then some supernatural explanation comes up and it's like "nooooooooooo, you killed it!!"
ReplyDeleteskeptical sorcerer; Yes, she did have a history of being taken advantage of.
ReplyDeleteI basically would tell her that God told me that she should lighten up.
She called me once a year ago demanding that since I finally got my "prayers" answered that I should pray for her now.
It was sad. My life basically changed for the better once I completely abandoned the stupidity of religion. I got a great job doing what I love to do. I'm a music producer and now I write educational songs and make more money than I know what to do with.
It's funny how once you stop waiting for god to take care of you, how you manage to get so much more done.
Don,
ReplyDeleteYeah, I have alot more ambition and motivation now that I don't have the hope that god might help me or that there will be a heaven to go to and have a perfect life if things don't work out here.
SS said...
ReplyDelete"I'm also curious if anyone reading has ever seriously tried to heal themselves with prayer, know someone who has, or had someone make them participate in a healing ritual"
Yes, yes, and yes.
I've been healed 2 separate times myself.
Hey freed. Tell me. Have you ever gone to a doctor? Ever taken medication? Then shut up. You're delirious with christ lust.
ReplyDeleteSS,
ReplyDeleteYou got that right. It's sad that so many years of my childhood were spent in fear of this crap. And that every once in a while I'd fall back into it when things got tough.
But once I finally told my poor excuse for an imaginary friend to piss off, everything started coming together. If Ray says that it was Satan helping me, then I'm down with that.
I'm too freakin' old to waste time on bullshit. And I congratulate you on kicking that very bad habit.
When my mom got remarried to a verbally abusive, alcoholic asshole, I prayed and prayed and figured god was punishing me for questioning his church. I even ended going back (even though I thought the facets of it were all bullshit). I got tired of waiting for one of my prayers or one of my mom's prayers to be answered, so I just moved out.
ReplyDeleteThinking back now, I wish I had just moved out sooner, it worked out much better! Also I think back on my mindset back then and I'm just completely dumbfounded...I guess it's true what they say hind sight is twenty-twenty.
I've been prayed for, of course, but it has been a very long time since I prayed. As in decades.
ReplyDeleteAnd if prayer actually works, think of all the money believers could save on health care.
And I'm still waiting for that healed amputee.
Revenant,
ReplyDeleteI think church is very appealing in hard times. I can completely imagine how you would not suddenly leave it. Likewise it must have taken alot of courage to move out. As I mentioned above, I was sick for a bit when I was younger and I don't think I could have let go of religion at that point. I needed to think that if something happened I could go to some perfect heaven.
Don,
#1: It's OK, freed is really nice.
#2: I found the hardest thing for me to shake from my former christian beliefs was the fear of hell that was drilled into me as a kid. It really gets me upset when I see some parent threatening their kids with it.
Rufus,
I'm still waiting for Benny Hinn to walk into a hospital and clear the place. Whats that I hear from Hinn's ministries? Is that the sound of crickets?......
Benny Hinn. Enjoy.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI
SS,
ReplyDelete#1 - thanks!
you said...
"I found the hardest thing for me to shake from my former christian beliefs was the fear of hell that was drilled into me as a kid."
I honestly don't remember being threatened with hell or even worrying about it as a kid, and I was 10 when I was saved. I remember as a kid (in the 50s) sitting in church and scared to death that communist soldiers would bust the doors down any minute.
The only other fear/obsession I had was when I was in my 30s - dying and what happened to your body. I eventually got over that.
I do know that hell-fire and damnation was preached from time to time, but I don't remember it affecting me into making a decision.
I have other thoughts on this subject but will wait.
Nice!I like the song too...
ReplyDeleteI see your Hinn music video and raise you one comedy show parody. Hinn mockery is towards the end, but the other people they make fun of is good too.
Freed,
ReplyDeleteI think hell fire is emphasized more in some denominations then others. It was one of the first things my parents taught me, but it didn't really scare me until I was old enough to understand what it completely meant. It sounds to me like you became a christian for better reasons then fear. In my opinion making decisions out of fear is about one of the worst reasons to follow anything.
"The only other fear/obsession I had was when I was in my 30s - dying and what happened to your body. I eventually got over that."
That has got to be a universal fear. Regardless of what people believe death can always be a scary thing because no one really knows what the process is like. i.e what that final moment of life feels like.
SS and Freed,
ReplyDeleteFreed. I apologize to you. Mark Laine's racist insanity against Obama had me "allfiredup." I didn't mean to be uncivil.
Ray's moderator didn't let my comment on Laine to pass. I accused him of being a rabid racist and I also voiced a big worry of mine. One of these racist fundies who claim Obama is the anti-christ might decide to take matters into their own hands and make the world safe for jesus.
Words are things... pretty good.
ReplyDeleteAre the Chasers the ones I saw doing a bit about the Trojan Horse? They actually tried to get it into a Greek embassy?
Don,
ReplyDeleteoh, if Mark Laine is the guy I'm thinking of he's very black and white. He sounds something like: "all christians are good, all atheists are bad...and eat babies!!"? He's as closed minded as Ray.
Rufus,
"Are the Chasers the ones I saw doing a bit about the Trojan Horse? They actually tried to get it into a Greek embassy?"
Yes =D
I don't know if they tried to get it through the Greek embassy though. It was in their "what have we learned from history" segment
Don,
ReplyDeleteApology accepted :)
Well, I don't believe Obama is the anti-christ.
I was listening earlier to a program about this and it was Obama's demeanor and charisma among other things that were being compared to what theologians believe the anti-christ will be like, because people are so wanting change, answers, and solutions. But they laughed at the idea of him being the anti-christ.
I personally haven't seen any emails about him being the anti-christ but others here have.
SS said...
ReplyDelete"I'm also curious if anyone reading has ever seriously tried to heal themselves with prayer, know someone who has, or had someone make them participate in a healing ritual"
Freed said...
Yes, yes, and yes.
Ditto for me - but you all have already told me I was wrong. And this doesn't include the miracles I have seen also - though you all have told me I was wrong about that too :)
Blessings,
Patti
fourkid said...
ReplyDelete"Freed said...
Yes, yes, and yes.
Ditto for me - but you all have already told me I was wrong. And this doesn't include the miracles I have seen also - though you all have told me I was wrong about that too :)"
That happened to me also the last time I shared about me being healed which is why I didn't elaborate on it here.
"I don't know if they tried to get it through the Greek embassy though. It was in their "what have we learned from history" segment"
ReplyDeleteYep, I believe it was a greek embassy. And yes, the victims did accept it. Again.
Damn you Quasar, you don't have to wait for youtube uploads to watch the chaser. By the time I see an episode it's oooooooold. :'-(
ReplyDeleteThe Trojan horse would be being delivered to the Turkish embassy, not the Greek one. It was the Greeks that left it for the Trojans, in what is now Turkey.
ReplyDeleteMy mistake.
ReplyDeleteDid you mean to use the word 'accept' or did you mean 'except'?
ReplyDeletethis could change the meaning of that part of your post.
livingasonefreed,
ReplyDeleteOops, my bad. This is why I'm a science student and not an English one lol.
Thanks for pointing that out so I could fix it and look a little less illiterate :)
to skeptic sorcerer/ess:
ReplyDeleteno worries.
Nobody is perfect.
Me, for example... I like pointing out other people's mistakes
:-D