One of the first responses Ray got to his little contest was someone explaining how they used to be an atheist and what opened his eyes (since Ray said he would accept these): (emphasis added)
I used to be an atheist. I argued with Christians for years. I had answers for all of their arguments. On top of that, the idea of divine judgement made no sense. I thought I was basically a good person, and the idea of God punishing me made no sense.As Bill Maher might say... New Rule: If one of Ray Comfort's arguments convinced you of Christianity, then you weren't an atheist.
Then I listened to Hell's Best Kept Secret and heard an argument nobody had ever used before. God's Law. I understood that I wasn't just a sinner in some vaguely defined "Everybody's a sinner" way. I realized I was a liar, and a thief, and an adulterer. I realized I needed Jesus Christ to save me. And He did.
I think that should be The Atheist Test. You can't tell me you, as an atheist, have argued with Christians for years, know all their arguments, and then say that what convinced you was that you realized you needed Jesus Christ to save you.
Especially coming to the realization of this through watching Ray Comfort's Hell's Best Kept Secret. For those who have never watched it, it is educational material for evangelism arguing you must first say how the person has sinned (lust in the heart, lying, blaspheme, etc) and then show how Jesus paid their fine.
The summary of the argument that convinced you that the Christian God exists is: The Bible says I have sinned and it also says Jesus died for my sins. I have "sinned" by the definitions of the Bible. Therefore, Christianity is true.
To HeatDeath:
Have you ever stolen anything? That makes you a thief. Have you ever lied? That makes you a liar. Have you ever looked upon a woman with lust? That make you an adulterer. Have you ever hated anyone? That makes you a murderer. So what are you? A thieving, lying, adulterous murderer.
Now, accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster for your sins or be cast into a bowl full of boiling tomato sauce after you die.
Posts
I have a very hard time accepting these conversion stories from The Cultists. Although it's possible for an atheist to change his/her mind, it seems improbable that a skeptic would go from disbelief to "zomgthx jesus I'm saved you r00l!!!"
ReplyDeleteYeah, I have no problem with the idea of atheists being convinced of these types of arguments. After all, a person could be an atheist for any number of reasons. I imagine most atheists aren't atheists because of skeptical inquiry.
ReplyDeleteBut if you portray yourself as this atheist who has been debating Christians for years and have answers to all their arguments, the claim that you were convinced by "Jesus died for your sins" is spurious.
WEM,
ReplyDeleteI think the testimony would be more like ""zomgthx jesus I'm saved you r00l 11!!11one one11!! kbai" :p
Nonmagic: 1
ReplyDeleteWhateverman: 0
I think the worst flaw about Ray's "If you did X, then you are an X'er" is that you can reverse it and make it a positive.
ReplyDelete"Have you ever told the truth? Then you are a truth-teller."
"Have you ever thrown money in a Salvation Army bucket? Then you are a philanthropist."
"Have you ever restrained from physically beating someone with flawed logic? Then you are a patient person."
actually I think this whole "if you've ever told a lie you're a liar" thing is the greatest argument ever against fundie christianity.
ReplyDeleteI don't think most fundies realise just how damaging it is to their case or otherwise they would never use it.
Chris said...
ReplyDeleteactually I think this whole "if you've ever told a lie you're a liar" thing is the greatest argument ever against fundie christianity.
I don't think most fundies realise just how damaging it is to their case or otherwise they would never use it.
How so Chris ? It shows that we are all sinners and without God's grace we would be in deep trouble.
No, Mark, it doesn't. It shows what kind of sham christians (well, some christians) are willing to perpetrate in order to portray people as "needing a savior."
ReplyDeleteHi Mark
ReplyDeleteI agree with Pvblivs actually. I think this is a faux argument.
But this is my reasoning. If we've ever told a lie - even a little one - then we're a liar according to this argument.
But that means we're all liars since we've all told at least one white lie.
So far all the fundies are nodding in agreement. But wait there's more.
You can't trust liars. Why? Because they lie.
Now if we are all lies then that includes the writers of the bible as well. It must because we're all liars remember. And you can't trust liars.
"Ah" you say "That's different. After all God directed the writing of the bible."
Who says? You? But you're just a liar. The writers of the bible? But they were liars too. They must be because everyone lies.
Get the idea Mark? It's a body blow to fundie credibility. They're basically saying "you can't trust anyone including us."
Would you really trust someone who told you that?
@ Mark
ReplyDeleteThere are 3 main views of humanity.
That we are thoroughly evil. That we are thoroughly good. That we are a mixture of both.
I tend toward the last view.
I have seen people do nasty viscious things in my life. But I have also seen people risk their lives to help others. Do without just to help a stranger.
A good example is from my country of Australia. There was a doctor here named Fred Hollows. He was an eye specialist. A great one. He had rich patients lined up waiting to see him. Know what he did? He spent most of his time in some of the poorest spots on Earth helping people who could never have afforded his services in their wildest dreams. And he treated each of them as though they were the prime minister of Australia.
Now my question is why is it that the evil that people do is somehow so important & so significant but that the good that people do [like that of Fred Hollows] is meaningless?
I think we tend to focus on the bad stuff & forget the good that people so often show in many little way [as well as immense ways like old Fred].
That's my 2 cents worth anyway.
My impression is that someone who says he used to 'have answers for all Christian arguments' and then was convinced by something so shallow, contrived and refutable as Ray's video, either is lying about his past, or has deceived himself into believing he knew anything of atheism or this brand of Christianity. If he is lying about his past to underline his esteem of Christianity now, he is now a Christian liar, congratulations. Not of the rueful 'I used to lie' type, but of the insidious 'It's ok to keep lying for the right cause' type.
ReplyDeleteIf he just thought he did have answers to typical Christian assertive sophism but doesn't have any to Ray's drivel, then he was and still is a pathetically gullible person.
I've written about this a while ago. I hate to use the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, but I honestly can't see how somebody could suddenly be convinced by Ray's arguments.
ReplyDeleteI saw a show one time where this one guy said that he used to be an atheist until he learned about how Jesus' tomb was empty. Yeah, that's what convinced him.
I used to believe that Hercules was a myth, but then I learned that he wore the pelt of the Nemean Lion. How else could he have gotten that unless he defeated it? Duh.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLance,
ReplyDeleteIn this case I would say it is not a no true Scotsman, as these people were not critical thinkers. It is like Bill Maher, he is an atheist but not a critical thinker. It really isn't hard to see a myth is a myth if you just sit down and look at it.
Also I believe these non-critical thinkers are the ones the christians will have the best chance of converting. Some of them are angry at god, for the loss of loved ones etc... They will claim to be atheist and they may have thought that for a bit, but there was no critical thinking behind it, no examination of the facts.
BeamStock wrote: Some of them are angry at god, for the loss of loved ones etc... They will claim to be atheist and they may have thought that for a bit, but there was no critical thinking behind, no examination of the facts.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree more.
Vocal Christianity seems to have a hard time admitting that only a subset of atheists are actually rebelling (rather than simply lacking belief). It may be because they actually *do* have traction with those who rebel - whereas they don't seem to be able to handle folks who think critically.
This shouldn't come as a surprise to Raytractors. However, I've always wondered if there's some way to get them to recognize the difference between the two types: those who're angry at the things "God" has done or not done, and those who see no evidence of divinity at all.
Chris wrote: Get the idea Mark? It's a body blow to fundie credibility.
ReplyDeleteI sincerely think your argument makes a good point.
But let's be honest: the fundies seem to be immune to logic. You could demonstrate they're somehow guilty of being inconsistent or contradictory, and they wouldn't care.
In order for you argument to be effective, it has to be heard by someone willing to listen.
[My commute was hellish this morning, and I find myself more cynical than usual - go figure :) ]
In order for you argument to be effective, it has to be heard by someone willing to listen.
ReplyDeleteThat is exactly right WEM. If they are not willing to listen and learn then it doesn't matter what you show them. In fact it can even trigger the backfire effect, where the stronger the evidence against them the more they believe. You have to get them to the point where they want to learn on their own.
Lance, I don't think this is the No True Scotsman fallacy. Atheists are simply those without a belief -- they aren't necessarily without this belief because of skeptical inquiry.
ReplyDeleteThis guy is claiming that for years he has been arguing with Christians and has answers to all their arguments. You mean to tell me in all his time arguing with them, with all his time reading up on Christianity to refute their arguments, that he never heard that he was a sinner and Jesus died for his sins until he learned of Ray's video? Really?
I don't buy it. "Jesus died for your sins" is touted even more often than "What if you're wrong?" "Jesus died for your sins" is posted and preached everywhere.
Whoops, I meant that I didn't want to SEEM like I was using the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
ReplyDeleteWho is "good" ? As far as the world is concerned,there are many people who do good. However, here is God's view of humanity:1)All people are corrupt and do abominable things. 2) No one understands or seeks God. 3) All have turned away from God. 4) They have together become filthy. 5) There is no one who does good,not even one. The world may consider it a good deed when a celebrity gives millions to charity. God,however sees the motive for the act, which maybe guilt for a past adulterous lifestyle. As long as the world is ignorant of God's Law,it will have no idea of what "good" is.
ReplyDeleteMark Morrison (Forgiven37) do you have evidence for any of your assertions?
ReplyDeleteHow do you know that there is a "god"? I am not talking belief, I am talking knowledge.
How can you know what god thinks? by your own words "No one understands or seeks God."
"There is no one who does good,not even one. The world may consider it a good deed when a celebrity gives millions to charity. God,however sees the motive for the act, which maybe guilt for a past adulterous lifestyle."
So giving money is not good, then why do it? How do you know what reasons a person would give for? What does the motivation for the giving have to do with the act of giving being good or not?
Mark,
ReplyDeleteIn your post above you are not only presupposing the existence of a deity, but you are also presupposing that said deity is the one you worship. Since you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you, but personally I would accept simply the preponderance of the evidence. Beyond that, nothing past your claim that "here is God's view of humanity" holds any credibility until you provide evidence for God that can not be explained in scientific and/or supernatural terms.
BeamStalk - Rocky S. said...
ReplyDeleteMark Morrison (Forgiven37) do you have evidence for any of your assertions?
How do you know that there is a "god"? I am not talking belief, I am talking knowledge.
Sure I do. I have personal knowledge in the same sense as you know a car is real. Is he physical no, can't see him,touch him or taste him but He makes Himself known to those who seek him. Christianty is NOT a religion. Religion is man's attempt to reach God. Christianty is God having a relationship with us.
How can you know what god thinks? by your own words "No one understands or seeks God."
Simple, we have God's word.The Holy Bible.
"There is no one who does good,not even one. The world may consider it a good deed when a celebrity gives millions to charity. God,however sees the motive for the act, which maybe guilt for a past adulterous lifestyle."
So giving money is not good, then why do it?How do you know what reasons a person would give for? What does the motivation for the giving have to do with the act of giving being good or not?
It has everything to do with it. If you give looking for something in return do you think that's a good thing? We tend to think that if we were rich then we wouldn't have any problems. Nothing could be further from the truth, you just have a different set of problems.
@ Mark
ReplyDeleteYou wrote "Christianty is NOT a religion. Religion is man's attempt to reach God. Christianty is God having a relationship with us."
My reply: Sorry but that is incorrect. Religion is defined in the oxford dictionary as:
religion
• noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.
— ORIGIN originally in the sense life under monastic vows: from Latin religio ‘obligation, reverence’."
Doesn't sound like the actual meaning of the word agrees with you. But there's an easy way to resolve this. Since Christianity isn't a religion it can start paying tax. After all only religions don't pay tax in the U.S.
@ Mark
ReplyDeleteNext, when asked how you can know what God thinks you replied "Simple, we have God's word.The Holy Bible."
Trouble is Mark that the bible doesn't say ANYWHERE that it is God's word. NOT ONCE!
Sort of ruins your argument doesn't it?
@ Mark
ReplyDeleteNext you wrote some very strange things.
"I have personal knowledge in the same sense as you know a car is real."
My reply: Ummm Mark we can see our cars. That's how we know they are real. But we can't see God.
You must agree because then you wrote "[you] can't see him [God],touch him or taste him..."
So what you seem to be saying is I can't know God in the same way as I know my car is real. Can I?
Then you write "...but He makes Himself known to those who seek him."
Or our feelings do. And feelings can be wrong. Can't they Mark? After all our feelings can change based on what we've had for lunch. So not a reliable indicator this way either.
So you've got feeling which aren't reliable & a book which never said it was God's word to guide you about what God thinks. Is that about it?
I have no problem paying taxes. Also I wasn't defining religion, I was defining what I believe Christianty to be.
ReplyDeleteChris said...
ReplyDelete@ Mark
Next, when asked how you can know what God thinks you replied "Simple, we have God's word.The Holy Bible."
Trouble is Mark that the bible doesn't say ANYWHERE that it is God's word. NOT ONCE!
Sort of ruins your argument doesn't it?
The Bible proves itself to be supernatural with a quick study of it's prophecies.Inspired by God and put on paper by man. It warns us not to add or take away from it in Revelation. You guys ask for God to speak to you. Repent,turn from your sin and READ the Bible. God will reveal Himself.
Chris said...
ReplyDelete@ Mark
Next you wrote some very strange things.
"I have personal knowledge in the same sense as you know a car is real."
My reply: Ummm Mark we can see our cars. That's how we know they are real. But we can't see God.
You must agree because then you wrote "[you] can't see him [God],touch him or taste him..."
So what you seem to be saying is I can't know God in the same way as I know my car is real. Can I?
Then you write "...but He makes Himself known to those who seek him."
Or our feelings do. And feelings can be wrong. Can't they Mark? After all our feelings can change based on what we've had for lunch. So not a reliable indicator this way either.
So you've got feeling which aren't reliable & a book which never said it was God's word to guide you about what God thinks. Is that about it?.
Chris, I do not depend on a feeling. Feelings can change from day to day but God does not change. seek and you shall find, He will make Himself known to you if you really seek him. Repent,turn from your sin and read your Bible.
The Bible proves itself to be supernatural with a quick study of it's prophecies.Inspired by God and put on paper by man. It warns us not to add or take away from it in Revelation. You guys ask for God to speak to you. Repent,turn from your sin and READ the Bible. God will reveal Himself.
ReplyDeleteThat is the funniest thing you have ever said. That line is misquoted so many times it is funny. Mark do you trust anything written in the Book of Mark the last chapter after verse 8? Do you believe the story of Jesus and the adulterous woman in John? These are just easy examples of things added to the bible after it was a bible.
You realize that when revelations was written there was no bible. John of Patmos more than likely didn't even write that line (on a side note I would love to try the mushrooms on the island of Patmos, they give a nice hallucinogenic effect). It was added by "scribes", for a lack of a better word to describe the untrained barely literate people who copied the bible at first, to keep other "scribes" from adding and taking things away like they were doing all the time. Look it up!
Mark Morrison (Forgiven37) said...
ReplyDeleteIt has everything to do with it. If you give looking for something in return do you think that's a good thing?
No I call that shopping and buying. When donating there is nothing given in return, that would defeat the meaning of the word.
That is not what you described either. You said someone gave because they felt guilty about an affair, I can accept this on a hypothetical basis. What is he asking for in return? Are you saying peace of mind, well he probably won't get it, I agree with that. Still what does that have to do with the donation itself? The donation is an act of kindness even if he thought it could help buy off his guilt. To me the act is good. Show me why giving money to a reputable charity or organization is evil.
We tend to think that if we were rich then we wouldn't have any problems. Nothing could be further from the truth, you just have a different set of problems.
Non sequitur much? Where did I ever say this? Where the fuck did this come from?
BeamStalk - Rocky S.
ReplyDeletedidn't take long for the profanity to start flying did it. I never said that was your quote I said We tend to think do please take the time to read and understand what has been said.
@ Mark [sorry I originally posted this on the wrong thread]
ReplyDeleteYou wrote "The Bible proves itself to be supernatural with a quick study of it's prophecies."
Ok let's examine a few of those prophecies that 'prove' the bible shall we?
Amos 7:14,17 predicted that Uzziah [one of Amaziah's son's] would die by the sword. Did he? He did not!
2 Chr 26:21 says that he died from leprosy.
How about another prophecy?
2 Kings 22:20 predicts that king Josiah would die in peace.
BUT
2 kings 23:29,30 says that he was killed in a battle [hardly a peaceful death as predicted].
Oh, oh here's a goodie.
Jer 34:4,5 predicts that Zedekiah "shall not die by the sword: but shall die in peace..."
BUT
Jer 52:10,11 says that the king of Babylon had all the sons of zedekiah put to death, then had Zedekiah blinded, chained & cast into a prison until Zedkiah's death. [Yep sounds like a peaceful death to me :D]
Was it prophecies like those you meant when you wrote "The Bible proves itself to be supernatural with a quick study of it's prophecies?"
I don't see how so many failed prophecies prove that the bible was divinely inspired.
Perhaps you could explain Mark.
@ Mark
ReplyDeleteYou're becoming increasingly difficult to understand.
You say that you know God, but NOT just through the bible or through a feeling. So exactly in what sense do you claim that God has revealed Himself to you.
& why is it that you can't make a mistake about such revelation.
Please don't reply wih some trite gobldegook about how you can make a mistake but god can't. Need I point out that we are writing about your experiences of god not His of you.
@ Mark
ReplyDeleteI believe I know the bible - probably a darn sight betterthan you do.
I not only read it several times [when I was a fundie christian] but I've also studied the history of the area at the time it was written. Therefore I'm able to put it into a histoical context.
That was the problem. I found numerous failed prophecies, babarities comitted on God's orders, and verses which were clearly written by greedy or lustful men who used the phrase 'Thus saith the Lord' to justify their excesses.
When I started to examine the bible through logic I found tht it just didn't make sense.
Mark Morrison (Forgiven37) said...
ReplyDeleteBeamStalk - Rocky S.
didn't take long for the profanity to start flying did it. I never said that was your quote I said We tend to think do please take the time to read and understand what has been said.
It didn't take the judgmental attitude too long to come out either did it? ZOMG I said the "F" word!
Mrs Brovlaski: Did he say the "S" word?
Mr. Mackey: No I am afraid it was much worse than that...
Mrs. Brovlaski: *gasps* The "F" word?
Mr. Mackey: Well here is a short list of the things your kids have been saying.
Mrs. Brovlaski: What the heck is a rim job?
And you missed the entire point. Please learn what a non sequitur is. I have provided you an example here also.
But thanks for trying the red herring on my use of a cuss word.
Chris said...
ReplyDelete@ Mark [sorry I originally posted this on the wrong thread]
You wrote "The Bible proves itself to be supernatural with a quick study of it's prophecies."
Ok let's examine a few of those prophecies that 'prove' the bible shall we?
Amos 7:14,17 predicted that Uzziah [one of Amaziah's son's] would die by the sword. Did he? He did not!
2 Chr 26:21 says that he died from leprosy.
Amos 7:10 clearly states that his Amaziah was the priest of Bethel. The Amaziah in Kings is a king. It was not the same person.
How about another prophecy?
2 Kings 22:20 predicts that king Josiah would die in peace.
BUT
2 kings 23:29,30 says that he was killed in a battle [hardly a peaceful death as predicted].
The promise is not that Josiah would die in peace. Rather, the promise involved the conditions under which Josiah would be buried, or "gathered into thy grave". A key to understanding the nature of this promise to Josiah is in the phrase that ends the verse: and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. It is this last phrase that explains the nature of the promise to Josiah - that he would be buried before the destruction of Judah that was about to take place. And that promise was fulfilled.
Oh, oh here's a goodie.
Jer 34:4,5 predicts that Zedekiah "shall not die by the sword: but shall die in peace..."
BUT
Jer 52:10,11 says that the king of Babylon had all the sons of zedekiah put to death, then had Zedekiah blinded, chained & cast into a prison until Zedkiah's death. [Yep sounds like a peaceful death to me :D]
Zedekiah had rebelled against God and the world's most powerful kingdom. He lived in very violent and brutal times. Despite this, in the end he was allowed to live, just as God promised. Jeremiah had prophecied, "Thou shalt not die by the sword: But thou shalt die in peace…" (Jeremiah 34:4-5). The king of Babylon did not kill him. Since the Lord said he would not die by the sword, we certain that he did not, and that his death was peaceful.
Your turn
The people of Israel will never be completely destroyed
Bible passage: Leviticus 26:44
Written: As early as 1400 BC
In Leviticus 26:44, the Bible said that God would never allow the people of Israel to be completely destroyed.
During ancient times, 10 of the 12 Tribes of Israel were decimated by the Assyrians. And the Babylonians had persecuted what was left of the people of Israel.
Instead of assimilating or perishing, some of the people eventually were able to return to their homeland and recover their way of life.
The recovery was complete enough that Jerusalem again had been restored as the center of Jewish life. And the followers of Jesus were able to begin a process in Jerusalem by which Christianity eventually spread throughout the world.
Leviticus 26:44:
Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God.
The Jews would survive Babylonian rule and return home
Bible passage: Jeremiah 32:36-37
Written: Sometime between 626-586 BC
Jeremiah was one of the prophets who warned the people of Judah that they would be forced into exile by the Babylonians. In Jeremiah 32:36-37, he prophesies to the people that they will survive that their exile in Babylon and return home.
Babylon had defeated the Assyrians in a decisive battle, ending in 612 B.C., at Nineveh. And then, in 609 B.C., the Babylonians captured and killed the last Assyrian king. The Assyrians had an empire that had included the land of Judah but now the Babylonians had seized control of the empire.
In an effort to show the people of Judah that Babylon was now their new master, they began a process of forcing key residents into exile, as early as 605 B.C. More deportations took place in later years, culminating with the wholesale destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 586 B.C.
Jews began returning to their homeland after the Babylonian Empire was toppled in 539 B.C., by a coalition of Medes and Persians.
Jeremiah 32:36-37:
36 "You are saying about this city, 'By the sword, famine and plague it will be handed over to the king of Babylon'; but this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says:
37 I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety.
The people of Israel would return to "their own land"
Bible passage: Ezekiel 34:13
Written: Between 593-571 BC
Like Jeremiah, the prophet Ezekiel also lived during the time that the Babylonians ruled over the people of Judah, and he himself was one of the Jews who were taken to Babylon as captives. In Ezekiel 34:13, he prophesied that God would gather the exiles from the various nations to which they had been scattered and that he would restore them to "their own land."
Ezekiel 34:13:
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.
The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger
Bible passage: Isaiah 40:1-5,9
Written: Between 701-681 BC
In Isaiah 40:3, the prophet writes about a person in the desert who prepares the way for the Lord. This prophecy foreshadowed the life of John the Baptist, who played an important role in preparing the groundwork for the ministry of Jesus Christ. Jesus was born shortly after John the Baptist about 2000 years ago. The book of Matthew records many events of the life of Jesus and of John the Baptist. In Matthew 3:1-2, it says: "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea, and saying, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
Isaiah 40:1-5,9:
1 Comfort, comfort my people, says your God.
2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and proclaim to her that her hard service has been completed, that her sin has been paid for, that she has received from the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
3 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain.
5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all mankind together will see it. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
9 . . . say to the towns of Judah, "Here is your God!"
How many more do you want ?
Chris said...
ReplyDelete@ Mark
You're becoming increasingly difficult to understand.
You say that you know God, but NOT just through the bible or through a feeling. So exactly in what sense do you claim that God has revealed Himself to you.
& why is it that you can't make a mistake about such revelation.
Like I have said He made Himself known to me. Did I hear voices ? No. Did I see visions ? No. I just know. I understand that you can't accept that answer, but until you have a REAL relationship with God you will not understand.
Please don't reply wih some trite gobldegook about how you can make a mistake but god can't. Need I point out that we are writing about your experiences of god not His of you.
not sure if my answer qualifies as gobldegook or not but I have a question for you. You say that
I believe I know the bible - probably a darn sight betterthan you do.
I not only read it several times [when I was a fundie christian]
when you thought you knew God right ?
but I've also studied the history of the area at the time it was written. Therefore I'm able to put it into a histoical context.
That was the problem. I found numerous failed prophecies, babarities comitted on God's orders, and verses which were clearly written by greedy or lustful men who used the phrase 'Thus saith the Lord' to justify their excesses.
When I started to examine the bible through logic I found tht it just didn't make sense.
it's sad to see someone get so close but be so far away from God. would you tell me of your "conversion" story ?
BeamStalk - Rocky S. said...
ReplyDeleteMark Morrison (Forgiven37) said...
BeamStalk - Rocky S.
didn't take long for the profanity to start flying did it. I never said that was your quote I said We tend to think do please take the time to read and understand what has been said.
It didn't take the judgmental attitude too long to come out either did it? ZOMG I said the "F" word!
that wasn't a judgement but rather a fact. why must you use profanity to get your point across?
Mrs Brovlaski: Did he say the "S" word?
Mr. Mackey: No I am afraid it was much worse than that...
Mrs. Brovlaski: *gasps* The "F" word?
Mr. Mackey: Well here is a short list of the things your kids have been saying.
Mrs. Brovlaski: What the heck is a rim job?
I think this is what Chris would call gobldegook
And you missed the entire point. Please learn what a non sequitur is. I have provided you an example here also.
But thanks for trying the red herring on my use of a cuss word.
the point is that you start with the belief that we are "good". sorry but were not. have you ever had to teach someone to lie? steal? cheat? cuss? the answer is no. it comes natural.
the point is that you start with the belief that we are "good". sorry but were not. have you ever had to teach someone to lie? steal? cheat? cuss? the answer is no. it comes natural.
ReplyDeleteWRONG!! I made no claim. You claimed that no human can do good. That is completely different.
Oh how quickly you seem to forget.
Mark Morrison (Forgiven37) said...
Who is "good" ? As far as the world is concerned,there are many people who do good. However, here is God's view of humanity:1)All people are corrupt and do abominable things. 2) No one understands or seeks God. 3) All have turned away from God. 4) They have together become filthy. 5) There is no one who does good,not even one. The world may consider it a good deed when a celebrity gives millions to charity. God,however sees the motive for the act, which maybe guilt for a past adulterous lifestyle. As long as the world is ignorant of God's Law,it will have no idea of what "good" is.
That is your claim. You have shown nothing to prove this claim. Instead you talk about how money doesn't make one happy or how I said one cuss word and that was somehow causing the "profanity to start flying". These are non sequiturs LOOK IT UP!
Now where is your proof to your assertions? Show me evidence that man can do no good. I have pointed out charitable work and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Is it so hard to admit that you might *gasp* actually be wrong?
BeamStalk - Rocky S. you said
ReplyDeleteNow where is your proof to your assertions? Show me evidence that man can do no good. I have pointed out charitable work and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
people want to use charitable work as a means to "make up" for a guilty conscience. so again I ask you have you ever had to teach someone to lie? steal? cheat? cuss?
@ mark
ReplyDeleteI wrote "Amos 7:14,17 predicted that Uzziah [one of Amaziah's son's] would die by the sword. Did he? He did not!
2 Chr 26:21 says that he died from leprosy.
Your reply: Amos 7:10 clearly states that his Amaziah was the priest of Bethel. The Amaziah in Kings is a king. It was not the same person."
My reply: Firstly it is Uzziah NOT Amaziah we are talking about. Second Uzziah was the son of Amaziah.
Boy that was a silly mistake. I thought God guided you in your interpretation of the bible. Perhaps you should learn a little more & 'know' a little less.
@ Mark
ReplyDeleteI wrote "2 Kings 22:20 predicts that king Josiah would die in peace.
BUT
2 kings 23:29,30 says that he was killed in a battle [hardly a peaceful death as predicted]."
You responded "The promise is not that Josiah would die in peace."
Of course you know this from all your years of studying hebrew correct? What you NEVER studied hebrew? Then let's consult some experts who have shall we?
Do they say Josiah would die in peace? Let's see.
"Therefore I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried IN PEACE." [new international version].
"Therefore, behold, I will gather you to your fathers, and (A)you will be gathered to your grave in peace,..." [new american standard bible].
"Behold, therefore [King Josiah], I will gather you to your fathers, taken to your grave in peace,..." [amplified].
They all seem to disagree with you. Josiah was to go to the grave in peace according to this prophecy but he died in battle. Got it wrong again Mark.
That's two strikes out of two.
Let's see f I can get three strikes & prove you know NOTHING abou scripture shall we?
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@ Mark
ReplyDeleteThen you give another prophecy.
"The Jews would survive Babylonian rule and return home."
This is hardly an unlikely prophecy. Since it gives no date if their capture had lasted until today the fundie jews would be saying [as some fundie christians still say about unfullfilled prophecy] 'any day now'.
@ mark
ReplyDeleteThen you write about another prophecy: The people of Israel would return to "their own land"
Again since no date is given this is hardly earth shaking. See my point above as to why.
@ Mark
ReplyDeleteThis must be your silliest without a doubt.
You write about the prophecy that: "The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger."
MY response is two fold.
1) There were several so-called prophets around in jesus' time. The gospel writers only needed to point to any one of them & say 'yep that was the one who was to come before the messiah."
2) We have no idea how John the baptist saw himself. He has left no Writing. BUT we do know how his followers saw him. They saw john as the messiah. NOT as a forerunner. That would suggest that John may well have seen himself that way as well.
Then you ask "How many more do you want?"
ONE actual prophecy would be nice. You haven't given me any so far.
@ mark
ReplyDeleteThen you write some rather arrogant & silly things.
1) "Like I have said He made Himself known to me. Did I hear voices ? No. Did I see visions ? No. I just know. [So a feeling or thought then. Stray thoughts & feelings happen all the time. I would suggest you get some verifiable evidence rather than 'just know'].
2) "but until you have a REAL relationship with God you will not understand."
I had a REAL relationship with your God. Just because you can't accept it doesn't make it false.
3) "when you thought you knew God right?"
The implication being that I never knew Him. Or maybe, just maybe YOU NEVER KNEW HIM & I did! Nah. Your arrogance would NEVER let you consider that even as a possibility.
4) "it's sad to see someone get so close but be so far away from God."
Ah but I haven't. See I found a faith that satisfies me.
Finally you ask "would you tell me of your "conversion" story?"
Explanation please.
Do you mean what made me lose faith in your God?
Or do you mean what made me find faith in mine?
You'll have to be more specific.
@ Mark
ReplyDeleteI believe your objections to cuss words would in my country be termed 'being precious'.
To quote 'In herit the wind' "We don't swear for the hell of it! Language is a poor enough form of communication at the best of times. And there are damn few words everyone knows."
@ Mark
ReplyDeleteNow a response to some of your questions.
1) The people of Israel will never be completely destroyed.
I've two responses to that.
1) Israelites are NOT jews! The term 'Jew' comes from Judah. The jews returned home. The Israelites on the other hand were absorbed by the surronding people.
Now you could reply 'But the people themselves weren't destroyed.'
My reply would be that in that sense no people are ever destroyed. There are always a few survivors, even in general massacres.
2) The so colled prophecy is what is known as a 'just so' story. If the people survive then the prophecy was correct. If the people die there won't be anyone around to say "the prophecy was false.'
So no great prophetic insight there.
@ mark
ReplyDeleteYou ask "people want to use charitable work as a means to "make up" for a guilty conscience."
My reply: Assertion. Prove that every single person [or even the majority of people] are giving to charity for that reason.
Then you ask "so again I ask you have you ever had to teach someone to lie? steal? cheat? cuss?"
My answer: Yep. Psychologists will tell you that children will often mimic the behaviour they see modelled around them. A kid who grows up in a home where 'being precious' is highly valued will rarely, if ever, cuss.
Same goes for an honest family & lying. Or thieving.
@ mark
ReplyDeleteHere's where you are really shown as either not knowing what in the world you are talking about.
I wrote "Jer 34:4,5 predicts that Zedekiah "shall not die by the sword: but shall die in peace..."
BUT
Jer 52:10,11 says that the king of Babylon had all the sons of zedekiah put to death, then had Zedekiah blinded, chained & cast into a prison until Zedkiah's death. [Yep sounds like a peaceful death to me :D]"
You responded "Zedekiah had rebelled against God and the world's most powerful kingdom. He lived in very violent and brutal times. Despite this, in the end he was allowed to live, just as God promised. Jeremiah had prophecied, "Thou shalt not die by the sword: But thou shalt die in peace…" (Jeremiah 34:4-5). The king of Babylon did not kill him. Since the Lord said he would not die by the sword, we certain that he did not, and that his death was peaceful."
What is the definition of peace?
Dictionary.com defines it this way
"1. cessation of, or freedom from, any strife or dissension.
2. freedom of the mind from annoyance, distraction, anxiety, an obsession, etc.; tranquillity; serenity.
NONE of those could in ANY WAY, define how Zedekiah was feeling.
He had seen his entire family murdered, had his eyes put out, faced a lifetime of horrible privation & imprisonment, possibly fearing that at the whim of his captor he'd be taken & executed. And through all that you think he was tranquil & serene? Totally unbelievable.
These answers of yours were really reaching. And, needless to add, wrong.
@ Mark
ReplyDeleteOh and Mark
Since Christianity meets the definition of a religion it IS a religion.
people want to use charitable work as a means to "make up" for a guilty conscience.
ReplyDeleteSo you personally know why everyone on this planet gives to charity? I thought I gave because I agreed with the cause and wanted to see it flourish. I am glad that you know what I am thinking and what anyone else is thinking.
To me that just smacks of arrogance. Now this may be the reason you give, but don't project on others. No, I am not saying I know why you give or even if you do give. I don't know why anyone else gives money, but I am not making the claim to know.
so again I ask you have you ever had to teach someone to lie? steal? cheat? cuss?
Again you haven't learned what a non sequitur is. Let me do the work for you as you seem too lazy to look it up.
Non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow."), in formal logic, is an argument where its conclusion does not follow from its premises. In a non sequitur, the conclusion can be either true or false, but the argument is a fallacy because the conclusion does not follow from the premise. All formal fallacies are special cases of non sequitur. The term has special applicability in law, having a formal legal definition. Many types of known non sequitur argument forms have been classified into many different types of logical fallacies.
This particular type of non sequitur you are trying is called a red herring. A red herring is an argument, given in reply, that does not address the original issue. Critically, a red herring is a deliberate attempt to change the subject or divert the argument. This is known formally in the English vocabulary as digression which is a neutrally denotated "red herring".
But since you insist. Yes I have heard many babies that came out of the womb cursing. I saw one that was a new born that told the doctor he was 8. I also saw a new born reach over and take the wallet from another doctor. Then there were these two new borns that were playing chess, and I watched one distract the other so he could cheat and win. Wait.... that didn't happen. Did you see any of that? Or could it be that these behaviors are learned and a lot just from simple observation.
You don't know this, but I never uttered a cuss word until I was in 7th grade. I was a good upstanding christian boy all that time, also a big nerd. I started cussing because there was a girl I liked and she cussed quite often. So to fit in with her I started cussing. Weird what hormones do to a person, and a little insight into the evolution of man. We are social creatures we do what it takes to fit in. You are an example for the people around you, especially the children. Children learn most things from observing adults.
Forgiven37 wrote people want to use charitable work as a means to "make up" for a guilty conscience.
ReplyDeleteWhile this might be true in some cases, it certainly is inaccurate to label all charity as driven by guilt.
Not just inaccurate, but patently false and insulting too.
By way of personal example, I've hated Christmas since I was ~27 years old. The traffic becomes worse, we're bombarded by advertisements that encourage to spend money we don't have, and stress seems to generally rise for 6-8 weeks.
Also, I was raised as a Baha'i, and even though I haven't been practicing for almost 2 decades now, I've always kept in mind that the Bahai's don't celebrate Christmas. In reality, you're encouraged to join your family if they celebrate, as this Baha'i practice is not meant to cause controversy. However, if you have the ability to do so, Christmas is to be treated as any other day.
At the age of 27, I began rebelling, and simply not showing up at Christmas parties. I didn't want gifts and gave none, and generally spent the day at home in my apartment.
After a few years of doing this, I decided that the best way to rebel against Christmas was to actually celebrate it the way is should be celebrated: by donating my time at a local soup kitchen (organized and probably funded by a local Methodist church).
Even though I felt out of place, the act of working to help make someone else feel a little better actually helped the holiday seem a bit more genuine.
AKA: No guilt involved
PS. I plan on doing the same this year as well
no WEM, deep down you KNOW the Christian God is right and you feel guilty for that so you are trying to appease your guilt. See this is easy, I too can make an unqualified unfalsifiable statement. What an utter crock of shit. OH NOESSSS!!!! I DID IT AGAIN!!111!!!!oneone!!eleventy!!!
ReplyDeleteActually, deep down I admit my rebellion was motivated by my Fallen nature. I loved my sin, and worshipped Satan and wanted to pee all over Jesus and the Bible and the One True Christian God!
ReplyDeleteSo I gave food to the needy...
I am just glad you are finally able to admit that. Now you must give your life savings over to Jebus, oh and your life too. That is the only way now
ReplyDelete