SCMike asked me:
"For certain??"
To which I finally, after smashing my head against the wall and attempting to eat through my own wrists replied:
"I can just imagine you getting a stiffy every single time you say that. And I just shake my head - because it honestly makes you look like a dishonest, immoral, illogical 'tard.
You have yet to ever even attempted to provide evidence that one needs to be absolutely certain about something to state a true fact or postulate a valid argument.
You've stated yourself that you're not absolutely certain about EVERYTHING, just some things. Ergo, you are not absolutely certain about everything you ever say. Therefore, why do you keep asking me if I'm ALWAYS CERTAIN when you admit that you are not always certain? What a ridiculous(but convenient) double standard you have there."
Am I the only one who finds that reply - "are you certain?" "ARE YOU CERTAIN THAT YOU'RE CERTAIN THAT YOU'RE CERTAIN?" the single most annoyingly retarded nonsense EVER?
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Oh, I don't know about the ancient coveted title of Most Annoyingly Retarded Nonsense Ever. There are other contenders to consider, including:
ReplyDelete- "Can the law of non-contradiction be both true and not-true at the same time and in the same way??"
- "How would you determine the validity of your senses?".
and of course, my particular favorite:
- "How do you account for absolute, universal, immaterial laws of logic and reason?"
[eye twitching]
Actually, now that I think about it, when you respond to any of the above there is a 90% chance the following response will be "Are you certain?"
You're right. It definately deserves the title, especially given the number of times we've explained to him how retarded the question it.
Here's a little project I just pulled up.
ReplyDeleteS
Please tell us how you know for certain that any of these things are in the Bible to begin with.
S
"Are you CERTAIN?? :) :) :)"
M
As certain as I can be.
S
Are you absolutely certain?? If so, how?? God Bless.
M
Sye could never accurately explain why one needed to be 'absolutely certain' about
something in order to make a decision or assertion with a reasonable amount of confidence.
I'll bet you can't explain it either.
M
I posit that you don't know anything for certain, either. You just pretend that you do.
And before you ask me, like an ass, if I'm absolutely certain, I'll remind you that I'm
not absolutely certain about anything, and that I don't need to be to have a valid point.
S
#1 How is it possible for you to know anything for certain in your worldview??
S
How do you know for certain that I am unable to use or recognize logic (don't worry, I
know you won't answer.??
S
Are you certain you even had breakfast?? :)
M
You have also yet to explain why someone need to be absolutely certain to make a decision,
or state something that is true.
S
#1 Are you certain that this is a logical fallacy?? If so, please tell us how you're
certain, apart from God. If not, you certainly have no right to judge my claim.
S
Are you certain?? If not, please retract your accusation. Thanks.
M
Are you certain that it's not? Is god talking to you right now? Did he reveal to you in a
way that you can be certain that your arguments are perfect and right?
M
You have yet to provide any evidence or reason that one needs to be 100% certain about
something in order to state a fact correctly or posit a relevant idea or claim.
M
Why must you ask me ad nausem if I'm ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN about everything I ever say? You
know damned well that I make NO CLAIM to ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. I see no reason for you to do
this other than an attempt to further evade answering questions you're uncomfortable with.
M
(to stew) And if he won't take that route he'll assert that you can't be certain of
anything because you don't accept his laws of nonsense that he says god gave him
specially.
M
I've described and explained why my personal certainty - or anyone else's has zero bearing
on what is true. I've also discussed that SCMike ALSO doesn't claim certainty about
everything - therefore why must I be 'certain' about everything myself?
S
(to Q) Are you certain of this?? If so, how do you account for absolutes and the certainty
of knowledge in your worldview?? Did the universe tell you this??
S
how do you account for absolutes and certainty of knowledge in your worldview??
S
Are you certain that I forfeited the debate?? We both know that according to your
professed beliefs, the exact opposite could be true. Isn't that right?? ;)
M
It could be true, but it isn't.
I acknowledge the possibility that you could be correct, but I have stated many many many
reasons to support my case that you're incorrect. It's called evidence based assertions -
you should try it some time.
S
Are you certain??
S
In addition, how is the claim that you can know for certain that the data you get from your senses is accurate because something you percieve via your senses says it is, "logically possible"?
S
How do you presume to know for certain what we ALL agree on, since none of us has the same brain??
S
...and tell us how you know for certain that the laws of logic can be or have been changed.
S
How do you know this for certain??
S
How is it possible to know anything for certain about me, if you admit that your senses are unreliable and self-verified??
Q
- I don't hold any opinion "for certain".
- I was refering to the fact that this is an objective opinion held by society, not to every single individual.
Q
How many times are you going to ask this, Scmike? It's repetitive and pathetic. You already know our answer: we don't know anything for certain, but we can know things beyond reasonable doubt.
This is your only warning: I am not going to answer this question again. I tire of the repetition. Ask it again, and I will take that as evidence beyond reasonable doubt that you are incapable of acknowledging our replies, and will discontinue this conversation.
(Note: I didn't. I'm weak willed.)
Q
Yes. I don't know anything for certain. You already know my response to this.
S
Are you certain?? We both know that the opposite could be true. Right??
S
Are you certain?? Perhaps you're using the wrong laws of logic to determine this!! ;)
S
After your admission that you can't know anything for certain, it's quite humorous to hear you speak as if you are certain that you will discontinue this conversation. Are you??
Q
Not being "certain" about anything is not a problem to a logical person. I don't understand why you think it is a problem.
S
All of my arguments?? As in: absolutely all?? Are you certain of this??
M
(To Sye) You have yet(in MONTHS) ever even attempted to provide evidence that one need to be absolutely certain about something to state a true fact or postulate a valid argument.
You've stated yourself that you're not absolutely certain about EVERYTHING, just some things. Ergo, you are not absolutely certain about everything you ever say. Therefore, why do you keep asking me if I'm ALWAYS CERTAIN when you admit that you are not always certain? What a ridiculous(but convenient) double standard you have there.
S
For certain??
Terrifying, huh?
It truely is mind boggling. It's like argueing with a five year old.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if he was on the debate team at school? :)
Ahh forget Ray and his cronies, they are small time.
ReplyDeleteNow THIS guy - he's where it is at!
http://www.myconfinedspace.com/2008/10/24/gods-revelation/#comments
Ray cops a mention in thunderf00t's latest vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjEC3DTUyxs
These debates are like trying to untangle fishing line. No disrespect to you or your chest but why do you spend time with those boobs?
ReplyDeleteCraig said...
ReplyDelete"These debates are like trying to untangle fishing line. No disrespect to you or your chest but why do you spend time with those boobs?"
I'm honestly curious to see if these guys are capable of conceding a point oe deviating from their script.
This one's pretty key too:
ReplyDeleteSCMike:"And it's more than fair to ask you to account for the standard of logic and reason that you intend to use in evaluating my evidence. The ridiculous lengths you have gone to in order to avoid doing this, should tell you something....hello??"
Me:I haven't avoided anything.
I've told you plainly over and over again that logic(AND REASON WHICH IS THE SAME THING) is a man-made construct. Perhaps you've heard about that 'philosophy' stuff before? Maybe you should look into it a bit...
So, now that I've accounted for it, lets hear your evidence, chief.
maragon,
ReplyDeleteMore power to you.
I'm headed out for more Paxil.
you guys seem to have it rough. I wouldn't want to be in that argument.
ReplyDelete:-)
Anyway - happy MoNdAy!
This debate between you and mike is getting really heated. Mike is really good at exposing absurd worldviews while you guys all gang up on him.
ReplyDeleteIt'll be interesting to see how this debate goes though.
And I betcha mike will say something to the effect of
Are you certain that you make NO CLAIM to ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY?
IMO
the priceless one was when Maragon said there were no absolutes and then mike asked here is that was absolutely true.
I burst out laughing
Sye's site is also pretty clever
Good luck in the debate.
MFT said "Mike is really good at exposing absurd worldviews"
ReplyDeleteShit, there goes another irony meter.
Heh. You said stiffy
ReplyDeletePS. Yes, it's a retarded argument. In any case, an intelligent person will almost always answer "no" - and Babbles just doesn't understand that
From what I have read in the threads you are all arguing with him on, and the excerpt here. It is obvious to me that he is not even reading your comments. Instead is throwing out his little one liners that he thinks make him look smart. A waste of time talking to him if you ask me.
ReplyDeleteThunderfoot will be with us in Europe for a while, so don't mess it up over there while he's gone, k? ;)
ReplyDeleteHe looks like me (confirmed by my wife), so he must be great.
I am certain.
Maragon -
ReplyDeleteBTW, easy on the head and wrists. Nobody is worth that aggravation (or pain).
MFT:
ReplyDelete"Are you certain that you make NO CLAIM to ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY?
IMO
the priceless one was when Maragon said there were no absolutes and then mike asked here is that was absolutely true.
I burst out laughing"
I can't imagine why you think that his response is funny or clever.
If I've already stated that I never hold an opinion absolutely about 50 times, why ask me if I'm absolutely sure about that?
it adds nothing to the discussion and is only a stalling tactic on his part so that he never has to account for anything he claims is true.
MFT wrote Mike is really good at exposing absurd worldviews
ReplyDeleteI see no evidence for this whatsoever. Can you explain how you've reached this conclusion?
MFT,
ReplyDeleteMike is really good at exposing absurd worldviews
His own of course.
I truly do not understand why so few Christians can see through this construct. So far only a couple of Christians around notice. So, MFT, How is it that you do not notice the construct as dishonest and a pile of trickery? I am serious.
G.E.
I see no evidence for this whatsoever. Can you explain how you've reached this conclusion?
ReplyDeleteOf course! God told him! :-) ;-)
G.E.
Quasar,
ReplyDeleteWell, at some point I told Sye I would not continue because he was being dishonest (different words, but this is what it resolves to), and I actually stopped. Then I have given a few points here and there, mostly to others discussing with Sye, a few intents of conversations with Sye, then answered scmike a few times, but he was quick to withdraw. Seems like he has trained the Sye-shit ever since.
Anyway, it requires strength because sometimes it seems like you can show them something. But it is futile.
G.E.
Heh, no worries: Schmuke seems to have forgotten about me. Or he doesn't have enough time to respond to me. Or he just likes Maragon better.
ReplyDeleteI'm actually relieved... I don't know how much more my desk (and skull) could have taken.
Mrfreethiker said
ReplyDelete"the priceless one was when Maragon said there were no absolutes and then mike asked here is that was absolutely true. "
Wow! Very funny....
Hey, Jean and Mr Freethinker: mind sharing the joke with the rest of the class?
ReplyDeleteWhat does "absolutely true" even mean?
Maragon said "Absolutes do not exist" for this to be true- her aforementioned statement would have to be absolutely true. Therefore absolutes wold have to exist. If her statement was not absolutely true, then it would only be partially true and absolutes would also exist.
ReplyDeleteScmike refuted Maragon's entire worldview with 4 words.
MFT,
ReplyDeleteThis is the kind of stupidity I just can't stand:
Scmike refuted Maragon's entire worldview with 4 words.
Entire worldview?
G.E.
Isn't it amazing that after months of this that Mr. Freethinker is still making the most fundamental mistakes?
ReplyDeleteSaying that absolutes don't exist is not appealing to any sort of absolute standard. It's an assertion based on the available evidence that is held to be marginally true.
To say it's anything else is to completely misunderstand(read: lie about) what we've been trying to explain to you people for months.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@ Free
ReplyDeleteBy the way little man you still haven't justified your own use of induction.
You claim that it is justified by a revelation from an unchanging God.
But how do you know God's revelation are trustworthy? How do you know He is unchanging?
Let me guess...induction? :D
I guess I'm good at exposing the weakness of people's world view too. What do you know. :D
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@ Free
ReplyDeleteYou wrote "Maragon said "Absolutes do not exist" for this to be true- her aforementioned statement would have to be absolutely true."
Totally false. For Maragon to state that no absolutes exist all that would be necessary would be for such a statement to be objectively true. No absolute truth necessary.
Is that what you meant Free? That when SCMike makes such silly mistakes you like to laugh at him?
Give the poor guy a break! I don't think SCMike can help making such stupid errors. After all he has shown himself to be intellectually challenged time after time.
Heh heh, I like being able to insult people over here without breaking my debate poker face over there. In some cases, it's easier to expose stupidity if I'm not insulting them.
ReplyDeleteOf course, in other cases, I don't have to bother.
Maragon is the statement
ReplyDelete"Absolutes do not exist"
1)Absolutely true
2)partially true
3)false
I would be glad to hear your answer
MF wrote Maragon said "Absolutes do not exist" for this to be true- her aforementioned statement would have to be absolutely true
ReplyDeleteFalse.
"Absolutes do not exist" is a statement made by a being with limited perspective. It can be interpretted as "To the best of my knowledge, I have never found an 'absolute', and do not believe they exist".
I (Whateverman) assert that absolutes do not exist. If someone can show me otherwise, I'll change my opinion (yes, that IS what we're really talking about here. Opinion, not fact). Until that happens, however, I can;t remember any hypothetical situation in which it was impossible to question the veracity or truthiness of the subject.
This is true of opinion, legal issues, physics, psychology - and even math.
MrFreeThinker said...
ReplyDeleteMaragon is the statement
"Absolutes do not exist"
1)Absolutely true
2)partially true
3)false
I would be glad to hear your answer
None of the above. It's objectively, or marginally true.
It's your(and Mike's and Sye's) misuse of language that creates issues here.
@ Free
ReplyDeleteAn absolute truth is something which is true in all times & in all places.
Two questions spring from this.
1) How in the world can you have a partial absolute truth? [you listed that as one of the optional answers].
2) Since we are finite human beings who cannot see all times & all places how would we recognise an absolute truth if we found it?
I insist, short comments, just play with them, do not give them so much stuff. Otherwise they find what they are looking for ... futile. I should insist.
ReplyDeleteG.E.
I am certainly certain that their certainty is bullshit. And I do not give a damn. ;)
ReplyDelete2) Since we are finite human beings who cannot see all times & all places how would we recognise an absolute truth if we found it?
ReplyDeleteTheir godie reveals it to them in a way that they can be certain of it. (In other words, they imagine that they know for certain just because they think there is a god who actually speaks to them. As of me, of course, I am "begging the question" that their godie cannot reveal things to them in a way that they can be certain of it.)
Guys, even I can do it now! I am sick. Going to vomit BDUAAAAAGHH!
Chris wrote 2) Since we are finite human beings who cannot see all times & all places how would we recognise an absolute truth if we found it?
ReplyDeleteActually, it's entirely possible that we finite human beings could discover and by accident label something absolute truth.
The greater danger, by far, lies in incorrectly identifying such a thing. As imperfect beings, we are by design incapable of confirming whether a truth is absolute or not.
In short, I'd rather err on the side of caution (ie. nothing is absolute) rather than guarantee failure (ie. absolutes exist)
@ W.E.M
ReplyDeleteYou wrote "Actually, it's entirely possible that we finite human beings could discover and by accident label something absolute truth."
Ah but i we only accidentally correctly label something as absolute truth then we can't claim it as knowledge. After all knowledge is defined as justified true belief.
Such an accidental labeling would indeed be a belief & true but not justified.
Sorry I didn't explain myself well before.
@ G.E
ReplyDeleteYou wrote "Their godie reveals it to them in a way that they can be certain of it. (In other words, they imagine that they know for certain just because they think there is a god who actually speaks to them."
There's a problem with such an answer. Let's for the sake of argument accept that God is real.
How do we KNOW that such a being reveals Himself to anyone? And if we do know that how can we KNOW that such a revelation would be correctly interpreted? And if we know that how do we judge between people who claim such revelaions& utter fruitcakes who declare "God has spoken to me!"
After all even the most militant fundie must admit there it is far more common for people to lie or be delusional than God granting important revelations to people.
Just replying "Well God told me whom to trust" solves nothing. They themselves might be becoming delusional.
See the problem?
My friend Chris,
ReplyDeleteI do see the problem. They either don't or they pretend they don't. That is the whole point of their tool. To them (whether they notice or not I no longer know) when we deny their stupid argument, no matter how clearly we explain it, they have the escape clauses. Let me show you:
How do we KNOW that such a being reveals Himself to anyone?
Because He does it in a way that WE can be certain of it.
And if we do know that how can we KNOW that such a revelation would be correctly interpreted?
Because He does it in a way that we CAN be certain of it.
And if we know that how do we judge between people who claim such revelaions& utter fruitcakes who declare "God has spoken to me!"
You are not saying that God could not reveal it to us in a way that we can be certain, are you? That would be BEGGING THE QUESTION! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! ;-D
See? It is easy! You then might be annoyed that I actually ignored your last point, and if you insulted me, I would declare victory and say that, obviously, since you cannot justify logic (or you do not have an answer to my questions), you got mad. Obviously showing that you deny the truth in unrighteousness.
G.E.