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Wednesday, October 22, 2008


Big thanks to Jill D for pointing this out here.

Jill D wrote:
Ray's blog has added this to the sidebar. It does not appear when you are about the post a comment on Ray's site:

Please note: All comments placed on this site are copyrighted and become the property of Living Waters.

Everything you write is copyright the moment you create it. Yes, even blog comments. The attempt to claim that any comments to him are owned by him is not right. He likes to claim "Fair Use" but that is different to claiming you own the copyright to anything that is said to you.

There is an easy to read run down on US copyright law. It's pretty much the same for most countries in the world. (Thanks to the Berne Convention)


I call for another strike. This is wrong, illegal, and he's done it very very quietly rather than putting it out in the open. It should not be tolerated. I recommend we all refuse to post until this disclaimer is removed, as we absolutely do not want to give our words to him to use as he will (and we all know how he will use them).


  1. I rarely post there anymore as it is. Ray can't write a book on his own, he has to quote mine what someone else writes. He's a loser, worthless.

  2. He's had that there for at least a couple of weeks. I think his intention all along has been to mine our comments for some book he is drafting - he kind of alluded to that a couple of months ago IIRC.

    He certainly cannot claim copyright over our comments - we are the authors and retain copyright forever, unless we choose to assign it.

    Fair use would certainly not cover widespread mining of comments. That would go well beyond fair use.

    If I see a publication with my comments in it I will be filing a DMCA report against Ray or Living Waters.

  3. "There is an easy to read run down on US copyright law."

    For Ray nothing is easy to read!

  4. That's so completely ridiculous.

    Guys, as tempting as it is to engage some of those braindead fundies, or King Nothing himself - you're only writing his next book for him and adding to the spread of idiocy.

  5. Thanks Quasar for making it a post.
    I'm doing a lot of reading to see what course of action should be taken.

    The D in DMCA is for digital so I don't think a book would apply.

    I did lots of checking: fraudulently placing a copyright notice on an item is illegal (17 USC § 506(c)) That's Title 17, section 506, part c.

    These are some cases to read up on to see if they apply:
    Video Pipeline, Inc. v. Buena Vista Home Entertainment, 342 F.3d 191 (3d Cir. 2003), Assessment Technologies v. WIREdata, 350 F.3d 640 (7th Cir. 2003), and Int'l Motor Contest Assoc. Inc. v. Staley, No. 05-3080, N.D. Iowa June 19, 2006.

  6. I don't mind if my comments would get used in his book.
    I just care about him using this disclaimer to think that our comments now belong exclusivly to him and are not useable by us on other sites anymore.

  7. I haven't posted on his blog in a long while because it's the same stupid arguments over and over again.

    Rather than get frustrated, I just ignore it.

  8. Don't just call for another strike, call to have any comments you've ever made removed from the site!
    Ray is a jerk. He is openly breaking the law. He makes his money from being a jerk.
    Remove your comments! If he illegally uses your work in his books, get a cease and desist.
    If he publishes them electronicaly use the DMCA. Google own "Blogger" and they take the DMCA seriously.

    Man. I'm usually an angry man but now I'm even angrier.

  9. Yes, I noticed this a while ago and kept meaning to comment. You're right; it's totally illegal and he has no idea what he's talking about. Don't fundies have lawyers or something?

    Nice to see Ray's understanding of copyright law is on an exact par with his understanding of evolution.

    And how come God doesn't tell him he's got it wrong?

  10. the only thing is that we might have to comment there now and then to redirect newbies to a well known more liberal and legal site ;)
    I would never have found the raytractors if all of had joined the last strike.

  11. I would like nothing better than to just walk away from Ray's site and pretend that it doesn't exist. Unfortunately, all us atheists know that wishing for things doesn't make them so, and that ignoring things doesn't make them go away.

    We need to maintain a presence over at AC, if only to inform posters like Tilia that there is a better place to hold a discussion. I propose we step up our efforts to get the word out about this site. Obviously, we can't drop the URL in our comments over there, but perhaps if we instruct interested parties to google a particular phrase that will return the Raytractors as the number one site, we can slip that past Ray's crack team of moderators (that's how I found the Raytractors myself - by googling "Clostridiophile" c^_^ɔ).

  12. Important Announcement From The Ministry of Truth:

    "All comments indicating the existence of 'atheists' are to be deleted from the blog site known as 'Atheist Central'.

    "As has been shown conclusively by Ray Comfort; atheists do not exist and therefore there can be no 'Central' for them to congregate at.

    "All professing atheists are to remove their comments immediately to rectify this anomaly.

    "Long Live Big Brother."

  13. Oh, sorry about that; had a funny turn there - but I'm doubleplusgood now.



    If we can get searches and links for 'Ray Comfort' 'living waters' 'atheist central' and 'comfort food' to link to Raytractors, we'll be golden.

  14. I write educational songs for children as part of my work so I deal a lot in copyrights.

    If Ray were to attempt to publish a book using material from AC without permission of the people who wrote the posts, he could be served with a cease and desist notice.

    I wouldn't worry about it.

  15. So, are we striking or not?

    Doesn't matter to me either way, I'm really tired of those fear mongers. I was currently debating AllFiredUp about the origin of sin, but since he is still using "the fall" as his basis, he's pretty easy to debunk. He hasn't responded to my last comment from yesterday morning anyway. Honestly, don't they at least teach the fundies to avoid this line of argument? That logically the whole idea holds no weight whatsoever.

  16. I posted this in another thread already: according to the ToU Ray signed when setting up this blog, Living Waters has no claim on anything written here:

    Google's Intellectual Property Rights. You acknowledge that Google owns all right, title and interest in and to the Service, including all intellectual property rights (the "Google Rights"). Google Rights are protected by U.S. and international intellectual property laws. Accordingly, you agree that you will not copy, reproduce, alter, modify, or create derivative works from the Service.

    Reposted for emphasis

  17. Well, I wrote Ray a comment in bold, reciting the disclaimer, stating that I was not aware of this disclaimer when I made my posts, that I believed him to be breaking international copyright laws by adding it, and that I would discontinue making comments until it was removed.

    He didn't post it. I am not surprised.

  18. His recent post mentions an Atheists' Bible in the works. It's probably safe to assume, as most commenters always have, that Ray's blog was made so as to collect ideas for that book.


Unlike Ray we don't censor our comments, so as long as it's on topic and not spam, fire away.

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