Now Austin Cline, the author of the above referenced article, takes the tack that these tactics are "errors", and states that "These errors can be avoided if theists know about them in advance and care.".
Presume to Instruct Us that We're "Really" Agnostics, Not Atheists
Presume to Preach and Proselytize, As If We Needed It
Commit Obvious and Egregious Logical Fallacies
Try to "Prove" Something By Quoting the Bible
Threaten Us With Damnation or Say Atheism is a "Bad Bet"
Pretend that You Don't Have the Burden of Proof
Cut & Paste Arguments From Others That You Can't Defend
Ignore What We Say and Pretend that We Didn't Just Object to that Argument
Offer That Same Argument Again That We've Refuted a Million Times
Announce That You'll Be Praying for Us
(Details of each tactic can be found in the original article.)
Apparently, Austin has never attempted to debate with Ray Comfort.
Ray, as well as his more prolific sycophants, know full well what they are doing when they employ these tactics. It's not an "error" on their part at all...it's a concerted effort to divert the dialogue away from rationality - where they know they are weak - and into an area where their "arguments" are unassailable, because such quaint notions as "logic" simply don't apply.
In short, while some theists may indeed employ these tactics erroneously, believing they are legitimate dialectic strategies, many of them employ them knowing full well that they are illegitimate and will only derail honest debate...and do so with precisely that end in mind.
Well, I really believe, that there are a couple of people at Ray's that are dumb enough to think they are smart to discuss the way they do...
ReplyDeleteI don't think I can ever try to engage someone over at Ray's. The things they spew about atheists and agnostics is just really, really ugly. If that is how one becomes when they are "born again" then no fuckin thanks. I've never in my life said (or written) anything as horrible as what some of the purported "christians" have said over at Ray's. They only support my belief that the christian god is a total dickhead.
ReplyDeleteI can't remember who, but someone on one of the recent threads said "Jesus saves us FROM God". So they admit that their God is a horrible monster, AND THEY STILL WORSHIP HIM! Someone also said that ALL of America's problems are because of atheists!?!
It is very hard to not paint all fundies with the same broad brush they use against atheists. I personally don't want to be that type of person. The fundies are preaching hate and intolerance. I believe in peace and cooperation. I actually feel dirty anytime I visit Ray's site, like I can't get the fundy ugliness off.
Have you read "American Fascists"? The author (it's on the tip of my tongue) calls statements like:
"Atheists don't believe in God because of sinful pride"
"The non-believer will burn for eternity"
"No one is good in the sight of God"
Thought Terminating Cliches.
I think that is very appropriate. It essentially ends the argument. I'm sure it's touched on in the piece you linked. I better attempt to get some work done before I check it out.
Sorry for the ramble and typos. The comments at Ray's really got to me this morning.
That may be true, but I hafta say that the items in the list should be asessed on a case-by-case basis.
ReplyDeleteFor example, the "Agnostic" entry (#1) does actually seem to be a simple misunderstanding, whereas "Preaching" can definitely be listed as intentionally dishonest.
I guess I only mean to say that I'm disappointed with the list. They're not all equally valid, and they're certainly not all show stoppers. It's very easy to explain agnosticism vs atheism, and them proceed from there (for example).
Wow this sounds just like atheist debate tactics.
ReplyDeletePresume to Instruct Us that We believe everything on blind faith
Commit Obvious and Egregious Logical Fallacies
Try to "Prove" Something By appealing to naturalism
Say theism is a "Bad Bet" and ignore evidence
Pretend that You Don't Have to share the Burden of Proof
Cut & Paste Arguments From Others That You Can't Defend
Ignore What We Say and Pretend that We Didn't Just Object to that Argument
Offer That Same Argument Again That We've Refuted a Million Times
Announce That You're more rational
Yep atheist tactics
Mrfreethinker,
ReplyDeleteyou said;
"Commit Obvious and Egregious Logical Fallacies"
How do you account for logic in your worldview?
FSM Bless,
98% of christians are actually agnostics and I can prove it.
ReplyDeleteMFT wrote:
ReplyDeletePresume to Instruct Us that We believe everything on blind faith
From my experience in this blog, very few atheists have done this. Ever.
Commit Obvious and Egregious Logical Fallacies
Please provide an example
Try to "Prove" Something By appealing to naturalism
This whole "naturalism" criticism seems to be vacuous, but I can't say with certainty. Can you please dmonstrate how an atheist has tried to prove to something by appealing to naturalism?
Say theism is a "Bad Bet" and ignore evidence
First, no atheist has ever called religion a "bad bet". To be sure, Christianity has been criticized; but in this case, you can't simply replace theist with atheist and have the point mean the same thing.
However, do atheists ignore the evidence? Well, very possibly - but this is because theists here have only provided The Bible as evidence. You can keep pointing back to it as proof of your ideas, but in reality, you're simply pointing to your faith in the Bible.
And that's not evidence.
So it may be true that atheists ignore your evidence - but this is because everything you offer boils down to the same thing.
Pretend that You Don't Have to share the Burden of Proof
Most atheists aren't making positive claims that require proof or even evidence. So of course the burden doesn't lie with them
Cut & Paste Arguments From Others That You Can't Defend
Please give me an example of this...
Ignore What We Say and Pretend that We Didn't Just Object to that Argument
This may be true, but I suggest it's present in every single written debate on the internet. Objections/points get lost or ignored, and things get taken out of context. It's the nature of the beast.
Offer That Same Argument Again That We've Refuted a Million Times
I don't think I've seen many general atheists arguments that have been refuted. Please provide and example of this...
Announce That You're more rational
Guilty!
Why don't you post it to the side of this blog as a 'starter kit for theists' just as Ray has on his blog?
ReplyDeleteBTW - I'll be praying for you all anyway (i'm hoping you don't mind).
Have a happy weekend, y'all!
Thanks LAOF. You as well :)
ReplyDeleteThe one I get most of the time is when they try to prove something by quoting the bible.
ReplyDeleteI was visited recently by a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I told them up front that I do not trust the bible as inerrant and that I do not believe it's the word of God. Even after that disclaimer, they repeatedly quoted from the bible to prove their eschatology. Every time they did that, I told them again that I didn't believe that that book was the word of God. They stuck to their "script" and kept quotes scripture.
laof said:
ReplyDeleteBTW - I'll be praying for you all anyway
Ya know I have had plenty of Christians pray for me and this has spanned decades (I'm in my 50s). Still an atheist. So this indicates one of two things. 1) God doesn't listen to your prayers or (most likely) 2) God doesn't exist.
whateverman,
ReplyDeleteIf I could have a word - outside of 'theist-expatmatt'.
I'm too far in to objectively explain my position or intention within the comments of the next thread. I'm hoping that someone will take the atheistic side and start demanding evidence so I can try and find a way of defending Christianity; I just had to present some background first.
It is so hard to try and defend it logically, the only way I could do it was with an appeal to emotion; we'll see how it pans out...
ExPatMatt wrote: we'll see how it pans out...
ReplyDeleteThis really is a great idea, though - even if no one attempts the atheist side of things. I really do think it says something about this community that we'd try to honestly argue from the viewpoint of the people we criticize. At the very least, it demonstrates the extent to which we understand that group - heck, maybe someone can show me where my understanding is missing stuff.
I really think that the more you know your enemy, the better you can combat him/her. I also believe that empathy is extremely powerful when it comes to testing your own ideas - truly being inside the head of someone you disagree with can lead to good stuff.
---
I also hope to show that faith doesn't have to be blind; that you can be intelligent and believe in irrational stuff at the same time. Something I wish our fundy friends at AC would at least attempt to demonstrate...
btw: hope I haven't co-mingled the intent of these two threads :)
ReplyDeletewhateverman,
ReplyDeleteGood points all.
I think that I've already become an open poe to be honest! There's just no way I could find to logically defend my position so I've just resorted to typical fundie soundbites - it's a lot harder than I thought it was going to be...
PS. I think these two threads are intrinsically linked anyway, so a bit of co-mingling can't hurt.
It may easier for me as I'm a cautious deist. I see value in religious belief...
ReplyDeleteBut I'm turned off by idiocy done in the name of God and love. It seems like the extremists are the ones being presented as the face of religious faith.
---
Back on this thread (and with reference to my sentence above), some of the items in that list exist only because the religious idiots don't know how to argue/portray the points effectively. A majority, however, are sadly quite valid :(
I just can't see a way of defending christianity logically or without raping your intellect. That is why I have chosen the more liberal stance on the other thread. The only justification i can possibly give is a faith based one admitting that there really is no empirical evidence.
ReplyDeleteChris Hedges wrote "American Fascists". His latest book, "I Don't Believe in Atheists" attacks people like Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens, and myself, I suppose. Apparently, we should just stay in the closet with our non-belief.
ReplyDeleteLAOF: It does bother me in a way when people say they'll pray for me. Do something real and practical in the world. Something that counts, something that matters.
I love that MrFreethinker's argument in this thread amounts to;
ReplyDeleteNO U!!!!1111!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgAU5XQ2HnY
ReplyDeleteThis is a great show on IFC and this song is just greatness. You can see more of their stuff on youtube if you search "wkuk"
I don't think this post really adds anything to the conversation though, it just popped into my head.
I thought and thought and thought, and keep thinking, yet, I cannot come with anything but "presupping" to do the bizarro-G.E. at the other thread. I know I can do an excellent job. But feels so bad just to imagine myself doing that. So, I am stuck because I cannot defend Christianity with logical arguments. It boils down to appeals to emotion in the form of faith.
ReplyDeleteG.E.
@Chris
ReplyDelete"MFT wrote:
Presume to Instruct Us that We believe everything on blind faith
From my experience in this blog, very few atheists have done this. Ever."
Go look at the thread "What's the disconnect?"
"Commit Obvious and Egregious Logical Fallacies
Please provide an example"
Several people in the thread apealed to circular logic to prove induction.
Ad hominem attacks against Ray comfort..etc
"Try to "Prove" Something By appealing to naturalism
This whole "naturalism" criticism seems to be vacuous, but I can't say with certainty. Can you please dmonstrate how an atheist has tried to prove to something by appealing to naturalism?"
I have gotten responses to my challenge like
" Well (according to naturalism) miracles do not happen, so resurrections do not happen"
"Pretend that You Don't Have to share the Burden of Proof
Most atheists aren't making positive claims that require proof or even evidence. So of course the burden doesn't lie with them"
Ok if the theist and atheists are discussing God , the theist will contend the universe was designed by god and the atheist will probaly say it came about by natural processes and/or chance. Though "not designed may be the default position" both have to share the burden in this case and both provide evidence for the cause.
"Cut & Paste Arguments From Others That You Can't Defend
Please give me an example of this..."
Go check on the f.a.c.t.s. blog and seesome people copy/paste arguments on biblical contradictions in the comments
"Offer That Same Argument Again That We've Refuted a Million Times
I don't think I've seen many general atheists arguments that have been refuted. Please provide and example of this..."
The boeing 747 ( god is complex -so he is improbable) argumment from Dawkins has popped up a lot here.
"Announce That You're more rational
Guilty!"
Me too
"The boeing 747 ( god is complex -so he is improbable) argumment from Dawkins has popped up a lot here."
ReplyDeleteYou didn't prove it.
You asserted that you didn't think that god was complex.......because you don't think he is.
If there is a god, I'm sure that you don't know his/its exact nature.
The fallacy in Dawkin's argument is that he assumes a cause(god) must always be more complex than its effect(the universe). Unless he proves his premise that a cause is more complex than its effect his argument doesn't get out of the gate
ReplyDelete"The fallacy in Dawkin's argument is that he assumes a cause(god) must always be more complex than its effect(the universe). Unless he proves his premise that a cause is more complex than its effect his argument doesn't get out of the gate"
ReplyDeleteYou do understand that Dawkins was merely applying a creationist argument AGAINST EVOLUTION and taking it to its logical end, correct?
Creationists state that life, the universe and everything is too complex to have evolved or come into existence by natural means. Some INTELLIGENCE had to bring it into existence. The Creationists state that their god is that intelligence. Dawkins merely points out that If everything requires a creator, then logically, so does your god. To disagree is to utilize the fallacy of special pleading.
Maragon wrote: Dawkins merely points out that If everything requires a creator, then logically, so does your god. To disagree is to utilize the fallacy of special pleading.
ReplyDeleteYour rebuttal, MFT?
God exists outside of creation so he doesn't need a creator. D'uh.
ReplyDeleteDefine existence outside of creation. Is it a place, or a condition, pure will or spirit? If nothing that we can put into words, how can we even speak of it? And if we can only feel it, how exactly does this feeling connect to the nonphysical? What is nonphysical if we cannot say that it is at all?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I like to talk to myself.
Let us re-examine Dawkin's argument
ReplyDeletep1- Complex beings need a creator( I will grant this more the sake of argument)
p2-The creator is more complex than what he created
c1-the creator needs another creator.
I challenge premise 2 and believe it is unsound.A cause does not have to be more complex than its effect. And as I pointed out to you earlier- god is an immaterial being with no parts. How can he be complex?
For some good reading you can check out analytic philosopher Alvin Platinga's assessment of the argument in his critique of Dawkin's book.
Mrfreethinker:
ReplyDeleteComplexity is not a material measurement. It is measured in bits. Specifically, it is the smallest number of bits (of information) needed to reconstruct something exactly; and it includes the bit complexity of the reconstructor. Now, to reconstruct a god exactly, one must reconstruct all of his knowledge. The god you claim exists would have to be infinitely complex.
The god you claim exists would have to be infinitely complex.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you entirely, Pvblivs. The problem is that when the Christian God begins to exhibit illogical characteristics, fundamentalist Christians assert that God himself lies outside of logic.
IOW: God does't have to be infinitely complex.
Personally, I'm not averse to the idea of a Creator God. What gets me is when, due only to the irreducible density of mankind, descriptions of him begin to make no sense - which causes the fervent believers to accuse everyone of lacking faith.
They appeal to reason when trying to describe him, but once the descriptions stop making sense, reason is ignored as being irrelevant.
Pblvis
ReplyDelete- Define complexity.
(Dawkins' definition is something made up of many parts that was unlikely to arise by chance and that was the definition that I was responding to.)
And by your logic someone who knows calculus has a more "complex" mind than someone who just knows algebra. A mind can think about complex things but that doesn't make it more complex
//The problem is that when the Christian God begins to exhibit illogical characteristics, fundamentalist Christians assert that God himself lies outside of logic.//
ReplyDeleteBut logic isn't absolute anyway (according to your worldview).
@ MFT
ReplyDeleteYou wrtoe that atheists "appealed to circular logic to prove induction."
You mean just like you did? You just wouldn't admit to it. Tsk, tsk.