tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post572361100597541948..comments2023-10-29T08:19:51.395-05:00Comments on The Raytractors - Ray Comfort's Detractors: Debate Killers: How Theists Avoid Honest DebateMacGyver Jrhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02307024564664964571noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-54774041876994452008-10-21T02:17:00.000-05:002008-10-21T02:17:00.000-05:00@ MFTYou wrtoe that atheists "appealed to circular...@ MFT<BR/><BR/>You wrtoe that atheists "appealed to circular logic to prove induction."<BR/><BR/>You mean just like you did? You just wouldn't admit to it. Tsk, tsk.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08281025205602142063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-87228889053749377312008-10-20T20:04:00.000-05:002008-10-20T20:04:00.000-05:00//The problem is that when the Christian God begin...//The problem is that when the Christian God begins to exhibit illogical characteristics, fundamentalist Christians assert that God himself lies outside of logic.//<BR/>But logic isn't absolute anyway (according to your worldview).MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-11340718900171793572008-10-20T19:56:00.000-05:002008-10-20T19:56:00.000-05:00Pblvis- Define complexity.(Dawkins' definition is ...Pblvis<BR/>- Define complexity.<BR/>(Dawkins' definition is something made up of many parts that was unlikely to arise by chance and that was the definition that I was responding to.)<BR/>And by your logic someone who knows calculus has a more "complex" mind than someone who just knows algebra. A mind can think about complex things but that doesn't make it more complexMrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-45340653147711295472008-10-20T07:55:00.000-05:002008-10-20T07:55:00.000-05:00The god you claim exists would have to be infinite...<I>The god you claim exists would have to be infinitely complex.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree with you entirely, Pvblivs. The problem is that when the Christian God begins to exhibit illogical characteristics, fundamentalist Christians assert that God himself lies outside of logic.<BR/><BR/>IOW: God does't have to be infinitely complex.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I'm not averse to the idea of a Creator God. What gets me is when, due only to the irreducible density of mankind, descriptions of him begin to make no sense - which causes the fervent believers to accuse everyone of lacking faith.<BR/><BR/>They appeal to reason when trying to describe him, but once the descriptions stop making sense, reason is ignored as being irrelevant.Whatevermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14458601080799278850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-193595516396128722008-10-20T05:06:00.000-05:002008-10-20T05:06:00.000-05:00Mrfreethinker: Complexity is not a material me...Mrfreethinker:<BR/><BR/> Complexity is not a <I>material</I> measurement. It is measured in bits. Specifically, it is the smallest number of bits (of information) needed to reconstruct something exactly; and it includes the bit complexity of the reconstructor. Now, to reconstruct a god exactly, one must reconstruct all of his knowledge. The god you claim exists would have to be infinitely complex.Pvblivshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17931937272948538181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-1612291397711478482008-10-18T17:06:00.000-05:002008-10-18T17:06:00.000-05:00Let us re-examine Dawkin's argumentp1- Complex bei...Let us re-examine Dawkin's argument<BR/>p1- Complex beings need a creator( I will grant this more the sake of argument)<BR/>p2-The creator is more complex than what he created<BR/><BR/>c1-the creator needs another creator.<BR/> <BR/>I challenge premise 2 and believe it is unsound.A cause does not have to be more complex than its effect. And as I pointed out to you earlier- god is an immaterial being with no parts. How can he be complex?<BR/><BR/>For some good reading you can check out analytic philosopher Alvin Platinga's assessment of the argument in his critique of Dawkin's book.MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-79192034460070139942008-10-18T13:18:00.000-05:002008-10-18T13:18:00.000-05:00Define existence outside of creation. Is it a plac...Define existence outside of creation. Is it a place, or a condition, pure will or spirit? If nothing that we can put into words, how can we even speak of it? And if we can only feel it, how exactly does this feeling connect to the nonphysical? What is nonphysical if we cannot say that it is at all?<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I like to talk to myself.felixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00749925395851545703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-29101785579095913172008-10-18T12:17:00.000-05:002008-10-18T12:17:00.000-05:00God exists outside of creation so he doesn't need ...God exists outside of creation so he doesn't need a creator. D'uh.henwlihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00223426423591084340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-21140531695307511902008-10-18T11:20:00.000-05:002008-10-18T11:20:00.000-05:00Maragon wrote: Dawkins merely points out that If e...Maragon wrote: <I>Dawkins merely points out that If everything requires a creator, then logically, so does your god. To disagree is to utilize the fallacy of special pleading.</I><BR/><BR/>Your rebuttal, MFT?Whatevermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14458601080799278850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-33562104613489033412008-10-18T09:50:00.000-05:002008-10-18T09:50:00.000-05:00"The fallacy in Dawkin's argument is that he assum..."The fallacy in Dawkin's argument is that he assumes a cause(god) must always be more complex than its effect(the universe). Unless he proves his premise that a cause is more complex than its effect his argument doesn't get out of the gate"<BR/><BR/>You do understand that Dawkins was merely applying a creationist argument AGAINST EVOLUTION and taking it to its logical end, correct?<BR/><BR/>Creationists state that life, the universe and everything is too complex to have evolved or come into existence by natural means. Some INTELLIGENCE had to bring it into existence. The Creationists state that their god is that intelligence. Dawkins merely points out that If everything requires a creator, then logically, so does your god. To disagree is to utilize the fallacy of special pleading.Maragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12231231272552028973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-65690732591227126442008-10-17T23:50:00.000-05:002008-10-17T23:50:00.000-05:00The fallacy in Dawkin's argument is that he assume...The fallacy in Dawkin's argument is that he assumes a cause(god) must always be more complex than its effect(the universe). Unless he proves his premise that a cause is more complex than its effect his argument doesn't get out of the gateMrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-42866617235294835782008-10-17T22:38:00.000-05:002008-10-17T22:38:00.000-05:00"The boeing 747 ( god is complex -so he is improba..."The boeing 747 ( god is complex -so he is improbable) argumment from Dawkins has popped up a lot here."<BR/><BR/>You didn't prove it.<BR/>You asserted that you didn't think that god was complex.......because you don't think he is.<BR/>If there is a god, I'm sure that you don't know his/its exact nature.Maragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12231231272552028973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-35435351055018970742008-10-17T21:56:00.000-05:002008-10-17T21:56:00.000-05:00@Chris"MFT wrote:Presume to Instruct Us that ...@Chris<BR/>"MFT wrote:<BR/><BR/>Presume to Instruct Us that We believe everything on blind faith<BR/><BR/>From my experience in this blog, very few atheists have done this. Ever."<BR/>Go look at the thread "What's the disconnect?"<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>"Commit Obvious and Egregious Logical Fallacies<BR/><BR/>Please provide an example"<BR/>Several people in the thread apealed to circular logic to prove induction.<BR/>Ad hominem attacks against Ray comfort..etc<BR/><BR/><BR/>"Try to "Prove" Something By appealing to naturalism<BR/><BR/>This whole "naturalism" criticism seems to be vacuous, but I can't say with certainty. Can you please dmonstrate how an atheist has tried to prove to something by appealing to naturalism?"<BR/>I have gotten responses to my challenge like<BR/>" Well (according to naturalism) miracles do not happen, so resurrections do not happen"<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>"Pretend that You Don't Have to share the Burden of Proof<BR/><BR/>Most atheists aren't making positive claims that require proof or even evidence. So of course the burden doesn't lie with them"<BR/><BR/>Ok if the theist and atheists are discussing God , the theist will contend the universe was designed by god and the atheist will probaly say it came about by natural processes and/or chance. Though "not designed may be the default position" both have to share the burden in this case and both provide evidence for the cause.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>"Cut & Paste Arguments From Others That You Can't Defend<BR/><BR/>Please give me an example of this..."<BR/>Go check on the f.a.c.t.s. blog and seesome people copy/paste arguments on biblical contradictions in the comments<BR/><BR/>"Offer That Same Argument Again That We've Refuted a Million Times<BR/><BR/>I don't think I've seen many general atheists arguments that have been refuted. Please provide and example of this..."<BR/><BR/>The boeing 747 ( god is complex -so he is improbable) argumment from Dawkins has popped up a lot here.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>"Announce That You're more rational<BR/><BR/>Guilty!"<BR/> <BR/>Me tooMrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-30950918511434242722008-10-17T19:07:00.000-05:002008-10-17T19:07:00.000-05:00I thought and thought and thought, and keep thinki...I thought and thought and thought, and keep thinking, yet, I cannot come with anything but "presupping" to do the bizarro-G.E. at the other thread. I know I can do an excellent job. But feels so bad just to imagine myself doing that. So, I am stuck because I cannot defend Christianity with logical arguments. It boils down to appeals to emotion in the form of faith.<BR/><BR/>G.E.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-69073863622257565752008-10-17T15:50:00.000-05:002008-10-17T15:50:00.000-05:00http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgAU5XQ2HnYThis is ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgAU5XQ2HnY<BR/><BR/>This is a great show on IFC and this song is just greatness. You can see more of their stuff on youtube if you search "wkuk"<BR/><BR/>I don't think this post really adds anything to the conversation though, it just popped into my head.BeamStalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17772110446629492132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-80819591806433074582008-10-17T15:02:00.000-05:002008-10-17T15:02:00.000-05:00I love that MrFreethinker's argument in this threa...I love that MrFreethinker's argument in this thread amounts to;<BR/><BR/>NO U!!!!1111!!!Maragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12231231272552028973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-62083965519074757132008-10-17T14:22:00.000-05:002008-10-17T14:22:00.000-05:00Chris Hedges wrote "American Fascists". His latest...Chris Hedges wrote "American Fascists". His latest book, "I Don't Believe in Atheists" attacks people like Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens, and myself, I suppose. Apparently, we should just stay in the closet with our non-belief.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LAOF: It does bother me in a way when people say they'll pray for me. Do something real and practical in the world. Something that counts, something that matters.TJHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10570384567898770658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-2918411702431281432008-10-17T14:13:00.000-05:002008-10-17T14:13:00.000-05:00I just can't see a way of defending christianity l...I just can't see a way of defending christianity logically or without raping your intellect. That is why I have chosen the more liberal stance on the other thread. The only justification i can possibly give is a faith based one admitting that there really is no empirical evidence.BeamStalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17772110446629492132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-76437509240087770242008-10-17T13:39:00.000-05:002008-10-17T13:39:00.000-05:00It may easier for me as I'm a cautious deist. I s...It may easier for me as I'm a cautious deist. I see value in religious belief...<BR/><BR/>But I'm turned off by idiocy done in the name of God and love. It seems like the extremists are the ones being presented as the face of religious faith.<BR/><BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Back on this thread (and with reference to my sentence above), some of the items in that list exist only because the religious idiots don't know how to argue/portray the points effectively. A majority, however, are sadly quite valid :(Whatevermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14458601080799278850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-90478688132485252252008-10-17T13:14:00.000-05:002008-10-17T13:14:00.000-05:00whateverman,Good points all.I think that I've alre...whateverman,<BR/><BR/>Good points all.<BR/><BR/>I think that I've already become an open poe to be honest! There's just no way I could find to logically defend my position so I've just resorted to typical fundie soundbites - it's a lot harder than I thought it was going to be...<BR/><BR/>PS. I think these two threads are intrinsically linked anyway, so a bit of co-mingling can't hurt.ExPatMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08666078524214384329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-34709788884703918032008-10-17T13:03:00.000-05:002008-10-17T13:03:00.000-05:00btw: hope I haven't co-mingled the intent of these...btw: hope I haven't co-mingled the intent of these two threads :)Whatevermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14458601080799278850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-80394759168055255542008-10-17T13:00:00.000-05:002008-10-17T13:00:00.000-05:00ExPatMatt wrote: we'll see how it pans out... This...ExPatMatt wrote: <I>we'll see how it pans out... </I><BR/><BR/>This really is a great idea, though - even if no one attempts the atheist side of things. I really do think it says something about this community that we'd try to <B>honestly</B> argue from the viewpoint of the people we criticize. At the very least, it demonstrates the extent to which we understand that group - heck, maybe someone can show me where my understanding is missing stuff.<BR/><BR/>I really think that the more you know your enemy, the better you can combat him/her. I also believe that empathy is extremely powerful when it comes to testing your own ideas - truly being inside the head of someone you disagree with can lead to good stuff.<BR/><BR/>---<BR/><BR/>I also hope to show that faith doesn't have to be blind; that you can be intelligent and believe in irrational stuff at the same time. Something I wish our fundy friends at AC would at least attempt to demonstrate...Whatevermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14458601080799278850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-38861192770527112262008-10-17T12:47:00.000-05:002008-10-17T12:47:00.000-05:00whateverman,If I could have a word - outside of 't...whateverman,<BR/><BR/>If I could have a word - outside of 'theist-expatmatt'.<BR/><BR/>I'm too far in to objectively explain my position or intention within the comments of the next thread. I'm hoping that someone will take the atheistic side and start demanding evidence so I can try and find a way of defending Christianity; I just had to present some background first.<BR/><BR/>It is so hard to try and defend it logically, the only way I could do it was with an appeal to emotion; we'll see how it pans out...ExPatMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08666078524214384329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-53349054842398538482008-10-17T12:38:00.000-05:002008-10-17T12:38:00.000-05:00laof said:BTW - I'll be praying for you all anyway...laof said:<BR/><BR/><I>BTW - I'll be praying for you all anyway </I><BR/><BR/>Ya know I have had plenty of Christians pray for me and this has spanned decades (I'm in my 50s). Still an atheist. So this indicates one of two things. 1) God doesn't listen to your prayers or (most likely) 2) God doesn't exist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-52585993417897589432008-10-17T10:28:00.000-05:002008-10-17T10:28:00.000-05:00The one I get most of the time is when they try to...The one I get most of the time is when they try to prove something by quoting the bible.<BR/><BR/>I was visited recently by a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses.<BR/><BR/>I told them up front that I do not trust the bible as inerrant and that I do not believe it's the word of God. Even after that disclaimer, they repeatedly quoted from the bible to prove their eschatology. Every time they did that, I told them again that I didn't believe that that book was the word of God. They stuck to their "script" and kept quotes scripture.Robert Madewellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13237253238274655114noreply@blogger.com