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Tuesday, September 9, 2008

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Tuesday, September 9, 2008
Was Darwin a Racist?

"Shiver asked, 'So what was Darwin’s stance on racism?' G.E. answered, 'Pretty much against it. Especially if you take into account his historical and cultural context, which you guys like forgetting when attacking his character . . . I also think racism is stupid.'"

Darwin was nothing but a blatant racist, a bigot of a man, who held to the belief that black people are inferior to whites. This is what he said:

"At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes...will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla." The Descent of Man, "The Races of Man" 1874, p. 178

Read it again slowly and make a note the comparison between black people and gorillas. His white robe is stained with bigotry, and his clan rally to his godless cause with religious zeal. Watch his hooded believers (those who had behind Internet unanimity) give a fiery defense of Darwin’s evil racist beliefs.

One more thing: G.E.’s "I also think racism is stupid" reveals something about his own low character. I suppose he thinks rape and pedophilia are also stupid. Yet it’s to be expected from those who deny that there is good and evil.

Posted by Ray Comfort on 9/09/2008 10:30:00 AM 0 comments



I would like to ask everyone who posts here to no longer post at Ray Comfort's site. Of course, I'm just asking. It's still a free country, for now. I'll never post there again. I won't give him the satisfaction or attention and publicity. This is the worse kind of baiting. But it's no surprise. He knows posts like this will keep his clan in six figure incomes.

65 comments:

  1. "I would like to ask everyone who posts here to no longer post at Ray Comfort's site. Of course, I'm just asking. It's still a free country, for now. I'll never post there again"

    Have heard this before many times, you are kidding right. Sometimes I have to laugh. Especially Maragon she once said she doesnt even look over at Ray's anymore, but shes back posting there. You all cant resist the guy!

    ReplyDelete
  2. Hi Jean

    Will you answer my question now please (from the 'Jean, Please Watch' thread)

    Thank you.

    "So my question is...are you willing to consider the possibility that this war [Iraq] is not a mission sent from god, but rather a mission directed by fallible, mortal men which planned this war to serve their own purposes and simply promoted the 'mission from god' thinking to garner support from Christians and make the war appear to be just? Will you consider this as a possible reality?"

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  3. Good lordy lord, Ray used this quote a while back and the "...." is where part of the quote is missing which gives it context (if I recall, he quote-mines so much).

    First of all, Darwin lived in the 1800's, so we have to look at his time in history. Second, Darwin was an abolitionist and didn't like the use of race in terms of humans. He saw all humans, regardless of color, as a single species...with variations suited to their local climate. Ray Comfort et al. have to lie in order to support their flimbsy case for God.

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  4. Rufus,

    Yes. I started posting quick and dirty, but Happy Birthdy to me! The day I was born I get lumped in with pedophiles and rapists and racits. I feel so loved.

    I say that if we all agree for real, everyone goes over there and posts a single line each: "I am not posting here any more."

    Or we get account name "the Raytractors" to state our mission once at every post or something and leave it at that.

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  5. I see the lunatic fringe element has showed up again.
    I thought I smelled something stinky as I was opening the site ***gagging***

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  6. Nafa

    Yes and No...
    I guess to say its a mission sent from God may not be really correct as I do not know the hearts of the people responsible for the war.
    There is a possibility that you are right no doubt about that.
    However because War in itself is not wrong, I believe even if the motives of the mission is wrong,( which is debatable to be honest)the Iraq War can still be justified biblically. God can still use it to glorify His name. Thats my take on this.

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  7. "...the Iraq War can still be justified biblically."

    Wow, it's worse than I thought.

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  8. Jean,

    So you're basically saying that man can do any number of bad things for any number of bad reasons (and starting a war/killing/assault on false pretenses, from the people telling the lies to the people sent to verify the lies, to the people hearing the lies is an astoundingly dubious reason to go to war), but as long as you can claim biblical justifiction, it's God's will?

    Can you not see how this makes no sense? It really makes me wonder how any Christian could claim "moral absolute" when the absolute is "we can say God wants it."

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  9. ... just to clarify...

    "and starting a war/killing/assault on false pretenses, from the people telling the lies to the people sent to verify the lies, to the people hearing the lies is an astoundingly dubious reason to go to war"

    should begin with "and start a war... on false pretenses that nobody believed"...

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  10. "The great break in the organic chain between man and his nearest allies, which cannot be bridged over by any extinct or living species, has often been advanced as a grave objection to the belief that man is descended from some lower form; but this objection will not appear of much weight to those who, from general reasons, believe in the general principle of evolution. Breaks often occur in all parts of the series, some being wide, sharp and defined, others less so in various degrees; as between the orang and its nearest allies -- between the Tarsius and the other Lemuridae -- between the elephant, and in a more striking manner between the Ornithorhynchus or Echidna, and all other mammals. But these breaks depend merely on the number of related forms which have become extinct. ****At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.**** (Darwin, The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex. 2nd edn., London, John Murray, 1882, p. 156)"

    As per usual Ray 'I am the world's cuntiest cunt of a lying cunt for cunty old Jesus cunty Christ' Cuntfort quote mines, and misses the point of argument being advanced.

    This particular lazy quotemine is so common, there's a whole page dedicated to explaining it in language even Ray could follow at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part4.html#DarwinRaceQuotes

    Feebleman even fails to get the citation correct. Is there anything this idiot can actually manage to get correct?

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  11. Rufus,

    I sent Ray a comment a few weeks ago, thanking him for driving me into full-blown atheism with his disgusting brand of evangelism and informed him that I would no longer be posting there.

    Oh, and I also told him that I forgave him for his countless lies, deceptions, misrepresentations and other deceitful tactics he employs as I understood that he had to make a (very Comfortable) living. I don't think it got through the censor though...

    His latest post reminds me of the time when he was going on about the discrepancy between the way some polygamy-cult was treated by the police compared to the Catholic child abuse scandal. If I remember rightly, one of our guys informed him that the cases were handled differently because the facts came to light at different times (many years after the fact in some of the Catholic cases). Ray took this opportunity to accuse our guy of condoning pedophilia! I don't remember an adequate apology ever being issued though.

    I think in order to re-strike, we'd have to get dimensio, StevenJ and a couple of others on board as they're the ones that are actually keeping the discussions going (and a great job they're doing of it might I add).

    @Jean,
    "God can still use it [war] to glorify His name."

    And you worship THAT? Sounds like Satan to me...or possibly Ares, Mars, Odin or one of the other gods of war. Nice.

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  12. I'm not posting there, but I do wonder if he would let the entire passage through.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Actually, I put **** to indicate where Ray's bit was from, not realising that his quote is even more fantastically cunty that just selecting a bit out of context. Look at it; he's even re-assembled bit of that quote in order to actually create entirely new meaning.

    What a pathetic, intellectually dishonest cunt.

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  14. By modern standards, most of the men who have been President of the United State would be considered racist. Even Lincoln, the man who "freed the slaves". Of course the Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the states that seceded from the Union. It didn't apply to the slave states that stayed loyal to the Union.

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  15. Baldy,
    You Sir, fail at logic and should indeed stop opposing such clear-minded arguments as those stemming from the dark void of Jean's head

    ReplyDelete
  16. i stopped posting or looking on Ray's site a long time ago. Of course, I still do it by proxy through this site. There are also a few 10 year olds I recently stopped debating theoretical physics with. The whole, "string theory is so stupid, stupid!" was getting a little repetitive and their parents thought me banging my head against a cement wall was an inappropriate sight for a 10 year old.

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  17. Where's this quote John 3:16 has posted from?

    "I was a young man with uninformed ideas. I threw out queries, suggestions, wondering all the time over everything; and to my astonishment the ideas took like wildfire. People made a religion of them."

    A Google just returns two results. If this were genuine, I'd expect it to be on every fundie site going.

    Methinks this is yet more bollocks.

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  18. Jean,

    Do you believe that a country that has a state religion other than Christianity (e.g., Saudi Arabia), a country that has a non-Christian majority (e.g., India), or a pluralist country (e.g., Lebanon) can ever be justified in fighting a war?

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  19. I ask the fundies to TAKE THE HISTORICAL AND CULTURAL CONTEXT into account, and next thing you see is Ray's new post. Shit! Not only that, but now I am a racist, pedophile and rapist, because I said racism is stupid (?!).

    Then this asshole, ethan, asks:

    I've asked the question before, and I'm not surprised that I didn't get a single response. I'd still like to know which race of "human beings" are the most evolved, and which race are closer in relationship with our primate relatives?

    So, who is a racist here, the fundie who asked this obviously racist question, or the atheists who did not answer?

    G.E.

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  20. Jean,

    I post at Ray's maybe 3-5 times a month, when I'm exceptionally bored.

    And apparently you can't resist me, Jean - you keep showing up here and talking about me.

    Listen, sweetie, I know you're into some kinky submissive shit, but you're just not my type. I prefer intelligent, thoughtful, independent women. No hard feelings, k?

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  21. Baldy,

    That quotes been debunked about a gazillion times.

    Check Talkorigins, I think it's there.

    ReplyDelete
  22. "You all cant resist the guy!"

    I guess the old adage is that one would catch more flies than honey. But in Ray's case, we can't resist him just like flies can't resist manure.

    ReplyDelete
  23. I have stopped posting at Ray's blog since he unabashedly censored my posts, which, as anyone who is familiar with my style can believe me when I say that they were valid and sharp, but certainly not in violation of any of his rules.

    In addition, the way he posts crap like his "Darwin was a racist" vomitus, then waits 3-4 hours for suckers to all post the same rational responses, then graces the readers with a pithy one or two line (usually non-sequitor) response hardly makes for a worthwhile debate.

    Take Terri, Ethan, Keith, Jason, Mark Laine, Curtis, "Carport", "Brainb", "John bible verse" and especially that nitwit "Storytime", all of them put together don't posess enough knowlege of science to pass a high school exam, even one designed for the "slow learners".

    I agree with Rufus. Ray's site is a waste of time. Let those dozen or so myrmadons all comment "Great Post, Ray" and share bible verses.

    I'm outta there! AMEN!

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  24. Moreover, while Darwin was very progressive on the issues of race (even by 1950's Brown v. Board of Ed Era standards), his racism or lack of thereof have no bearing whatsoever on the validity of evolutionary theory. Just because the bombs dropped on Japan killed in excess of 100k of innocents does not negate the realities of the atomic theory.

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  25. Some one needs to remind Ray of what Martin Luther wrote about the Jews. But I assume he would say Martin Luther was no True Christian.

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  26. Maragon
    "I post at Ray's maybe 3-5 times a month, when I'm exceptionally bored."

    Please Maragon you do not have to explain.

    mjarsulic
    "Do you believe that a country that has a state religion other than Christianity (e.g., Saudi Arabia), a country that has a non-Christian majority (e.g., India), or a pluralist country (e.g., Lebanon) can ever be justified in fighting a war?"

    mjarsulic, your question is the same as asking if its ok for a non-christian to take someone to court who has stolen, killed, or raped?

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  27. Jean,

    I am wondering if you believe the actions of a non-Christian can be justified biblically in either going to war or, now that you mention it, filing a lawsuit? Does it make any difference if their opponent is Christian?

    ReplyDelete
  28. Well, I wasn't going to post there originally seeing as how thorougly Ray got smacked down by everyone here (thank goodness, I thought I'd have to do all the work of researching the material to refute that bullshit, instead you all beat me to it, using the same resources I'd have used!)

    But then I saw Rex's post. As usual, he seems to have ignored everything that was said. Unless maybe none of it was posted at the time he commented?

    I had to reply:

    Rex Mundane said...

    Wonderful Post! So simply said too, indicting Darwin with his own words! Lets see these Atheists try and defend Darwins blatant racism, not so "stupid" is it G.E., now that your own racist leanings are brought to light. (And how dare you defend the rape of children)
    Huh? What drugs are you on? Care to back that accusation against him?

    The only case where I've seen anyone defend anything that comes close to that kind of practice is when religious apologists defend the ancient Isrealites taking of the virgin Midianite women after having killed off everyone else.


    Oh let me take a guess at what these Atheist Klansmen will try and throw out in their defence of Darwinian Lynchings. "Historical Context!" "Everyone was a little racist back then!" "Quote Mining!!!"
    Yeah, historical context. If you'd stop yelling so much and actually read up on it, you'd learn that everyone in Europe thought that way at the time.

    You won't though. You fundies are too self-righteous and arrogant to do so.

    Several posters here have already pointed out that Darwin hated the practice of slavery which the good "Christians" around him saw little problem with.

    As he developed his theory, Darwin came to the conclusion that there is no real justification for dividing humanity into different races (or varieties) as the word was used...in the Origin of Species Darwin also used the phrase "races" of cabbage.

    Someone mentioned a site maintained by Troy Britian; I'd suggest you look it up.

    By the way, your remark about "Atheist klansmen" was particularly ignorant. Why? The Klan is a Christian organization, idiot!

    Go to their own site at "kkk.com" and you'll find this:

    Welcome to the Ku Klux Klan!

    Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America! A Message of Love NOT Hate!


    Do a little bit of reading on the history of the klan and maybe you'll learn something.

    Care to keep acting morally outraged now?

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  29. Reynold:

    Rex isn't for real. He's playing the Rayniacs. I know he's a Poe because he when he first showed up awhile back he was arguing against them. He's on our side.

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  30. Aw, goddammit...

    Well, what the hell. I've posted (or repeated some useful stuff). Besides, given what I've seen other people (like ethan) post over there, one can never be too careful. There may be newcomers who think that Rex is right.

    Maybe I should have clicked on his name and done more digging myself.

    What can I say? Over there it can be damned hard to tell the Poes from the Foes.

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  31. Whoops. I forgot. I'd better apologize to Rex for calling him an "idiot".

    Hope he reads this before he reads my reply over there!

    I may try to post a link to this in a comment on his blog so he knows.

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  32. Reynold:

    Haha. Yeah he's pretty much nailed what a typical Rayniac argues like. He'd probably have me fooled too if I hadn't seen him post before.

    But, yeah you wonder if parodying them does more harm than good sometimes. It is scary to think some people will probably read those arguments and think "Damn right, Rex!"

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  33. reynold; rando;

    Do you think Ray realizes that Rex is a Poe? I have my doubts that he does.

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  34. Rex does it all right. I even asked him if he was being sarcastic because in his blog he seems like a person who can think ... then I posted something saying that Rex might be the pinnacle of a Poe but Ray did not let it through. Maybe he thinks pinnacle meas something nasty.

    G.E.

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  35. "Maybe he thinks pinnacle means something nasty."

    No, he thinks it is some kind of card game, which is like gambling, like what the Roman soldiers did over Christ's garment, which is a sin, so we're all going to hell.

    I like what Kaitlyn said in an earlier post, that she wants to be "Kickin' it with Satan".

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  36. I personally need to stay away from those whack jobs. I enjoy reasoned discussion, and though I infrequently DO find it on Ray's blog, for the most they're not willing to reciprocate. If you're not arguing from emotion or using scripture to back up your opinions, you're not going to get anywhere.

    It's a sea of sheep.

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  37. More lunatic fringe showing up.......

    I probably shouldn't comment - and will undoubtedly be sorry - but I just thought I would offer my opinion of the war - it is a little different. You all discuss it only from a political aspect. I don't ever think of it as political. I consider it spiritual.

    The reality is we are there - no matter how we got there - we are there. Doors have opened up all over the Middle East as a result of it. Our soldiers who are Christians carry with them the Holy Spirit of God dwelling within them. Strongholds of the *real enemy* (the one who lies and hates and murders) are falling over a lot of the lands there.

    Missionaries are there (mostly undercover). Many people are receiving Christ in all of that area (including Iran). If we only ever look at what happens in the world through the lens of politics - it is flat and two dimensional. The picture is imcomplete and lacking the dimension of the spiritual which breathes life into even the worst of mankind's deeds.

    I have already spent a year just praying that no Army vehicle shows up at my front door - and now am preparing to do the same thing again - and yet I know that with my son goes the Holy Spirit of God and it will bring light to a place that was held in superstition and darkness for too many years.

    Verse for the day:
    Greater is he that is in me, than he that is in the world.

    Blessings,
    Patti

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  38. Any evidence at all that those "undercover" missionaries are "opening doors" over there? Don't you realize that killing people and then trying to convert the survivors isn't a very effective conversion tactic?

    That converting bullshit is part of the reason that the western countries are just so damned popular in the middle east.

    If any converts have been made, they've been overshadowed by the recruitment stats for groups like al-quaida since this war (which was started on a lie) has begun.


    You're effing insane.


    Some other opinions on this:

    http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/04/15/in_touch/

    http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0122-26.htm

    http://dogemperor.newsvine.com/_news/2008/06/03/1536421-prosyletization-in-iraq-a-threat-to-national-security
    Read especially this last link

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  39. I hope your son makes it back safely, Patti.

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  40. Religious zealotry is whats behind the actions of Muslim extremists. I don't see that trying to combat that with Christian zealotry will do anything but galvanize the will of moderate Muslims towards unity in fighting and converting (or destroying) all non-Muslims (infidels), which includes you and me.

    A better course would be to take away the cause for any zealotry.

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  41. By my personal experience, I have found Christians in the South are very racist. I have heard the n word from the mouth of a preacher's wife. I am sure there are plenty of non racist Christians but I have never heard one stand up and say that comment was inappropriate when hearing a racist remark. I have done so many times, and believe me it goes over like a lead balloon.

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  42. Patti,

    I think a lot of you outside your religious beliefs, and you know that. But that does not change how I feel about your religion and the dogma that goes with it.

    The comment you left about actually made me so angry I was shaking because the attitude that wars should be thought of as 'spiritual' when there is not a SINGLE SHRED OF CREDIBLE EVIDENCE FOR ANYTHING SPIRITUAL is part of what has gotten us into some of the biggest messes that humanity has ever been in.

    Furthermore, you have no evidence for any of the claims you have made such as the part about the *real enemy* (:::eyeroll::) or that anything spiritual breathes life into anything.

    This is one more example of how believing things that you have no independent verifiable proof for can justify anything. It's sick and I'm not going to be nice about it anymore....not that I was that nice about it in the first place.

    The best thing, in my opinion, that could happen to this planet is if religion were wiped the hell off the face of it.

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  43. gzejgwhttp://dogemperor.newsvine.com/_news/2008/06/03/1536421-prosyletization-in-iraq-a-threat-to-national-security
    Read especially this last link
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Okay - I read it.
    A few key points.
    1. the fact that the term "dominionist" is flung around to any and every group with a Bible tells me the writer is clueless as to what the term actually means.

    2. Calling the SBC dominionist and fundamental is highly innaccurate and tells me they really are just using some hot button terms to rile up the readers.

    3. The article does admit that the chaplins that were out of line were considered "rogue".

    4. I knew about the Bible Coins and I agree that the soldiers should not be doing evangelism of that type. I do know that these issues are being dealt with in training for the troops now going over.

    5. To drag Pat Tillman into that article was reprehensible.

    6. and finally - so the people of Iraq are to be given no choice in seeking after the true God because it is contensious? They should be forced to stay in Islam, even if they don't want to, because the other Moslems might get angry. That is so hypocritical.

    While I would never condone forced religion of any denomination - I would alawys advocate that the Gospel be allowed to be presented and those that wish to convert have that right. If you want to take the atheist message there feel free to go.

    How many Christians do you think al-quaida recruits to wage their holy war? NONE. Looks like a solution to me.

    While you curse me, I will still bless you,
    Patti

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  44. I am sure there are plenty of non racist Christians but I have never heard one stand up and say that comment was inappropriate when hearing a racist remark. I have done so many times, and believe me it goes over like a lead balloon.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Yes, I have done the same - and not just against blacks - and I have been ostracized by some for standing against the "establishment" way of thinking.

    I don't even like the little denominational jokes against one another that are prevelant in the pulpit to add "humor" to a sermon. I never laugh along with the rest - and if highly offensive I will speak up.

    The Bible says we are to build up and edify one another - you can't do that at another's expense.

    Blessings,
    Patti

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  45. Thanks Maragon. I want all our guys and gals to come home safely - my son is no more special than any of the others there. But he has also chosen to go and didn't have to - he was under a contract that alowed him to have opted out - but he would not have his unitl go and him stay behind (others with the same contract had no problem doing that. But Ds said he wouldn't want them there any way with that kind of attitude.)

    And you have inspired me to take more charge of my health!

    Blessings,
    Patti

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  46. Patti,

    I hope your child returns to you safe and sound. Many don't and are being failed miserably by the our Dear Godly Leader. I have nothing but respect and awe for for the brave men and women who do their duty.

    Patty, are you aware that before the invasion there was a thriving Christian community in Iraq? Tariq Assiz, Saddam's foriegn minister, is a Christian. Saddam was a awful, awful man but since the occupation started the Christians have been ethnically cleansed from Iraq, women are being forced back to the hajib, a form of sharia law is codefied and the new government is closely aligned with Iran. Well done.

    Framing this war in spiritual terms isn't helpful, it's counter-productive. It wasn't too long ago Maliki went nuts over U.S. soldiers evangelizing the Iraqis. Stirring up the Crusades is insane when your supposedly trying to win hearts and minds.

    I'm worried we're going to repeat this colossal blunder in Iran. Patty, I'm beggin you to get as much information about what's going on before you vote this year. There's more to this election than moose burgers. The Christian and the Hero are shamelessly lying, repeatedly, and they're getting away with it. Will you hold them to account.

    Sorry for rambling but it's urgent we don't sacrifice more of our sons and daughters to this misguided cause.

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  47. To NMT,
    You never have to ignore smething you believe in just to be nice to me. I can separate the issue from the personal (and I can even take it if any personally dislike me.)

    One of the problems of writing in a blog (or any writing actaully) is that the person reading it projects their own belief systems into what the other is saying. (a perceptual frame of reference)It can't be helped.

    I did spend some minutes debating my use of the term "spiritual" looking for a better word. I know what it means to me, but I knew that all of you would reject the term out of hand any way, and probably misunderstand how I was using it. I still don't know how to properly explain my POV - but I can possibly eliminate at least one probable misunderstanding.

    I do not mean that a war should be fought for some holy cause. The Crusades were nothing but a cover to raid and plunder and find new wealth for impoverished nobles (though I am sure a few had more noble reasons in their own minds).

    Closer to what I mean is that there is a war going on - whether we want to be in it or not - for men's souls (that's the spiritual aspect of what I am trying to say.) The Middle East was locked up and impenetrable to outsiders. The people weren't free - they were in horrible bondage to a false religion of works and suppression.

    The political aspects of going to war are outside my control - but we are there - and doors are opening. I don't believe God caused the war - but uses it to do the work of setting people free from spiritual bondage.

    I am sorry to say that there has often been those that bring shame to the name of God by their antics (just as a btw - I don't put Ray in that category - I am thinking more along the lines of Joseph Smith and Jim Jones)but imbedded within true Chirstianity there are many good - but very imperfect -people.

    I can't give you verifiable proof that fits your standard. And even if there was no religion - people would still wage wars for power and money. And actually I think that is the only reason they are waged now; religion is only the excuse. People should be free to hear and then accept or reject what they wish to follow (but then I am somewhat idealistic too.)

    Blessings,
    and sorry for so many typos.
    Patti

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  48. Patti

    I also like to extend my best wishes to your son and hope for his safe return.

    You are right in saying that no matter how we got there, the fact is we are there now, so we need to make the best of it. However, I'm sure you and I would disagree on what 'making the best of it' means.

    I see absolutley no reason why we should even think that we have the right to push (not even force,but to advocate) any 'spiritual' belief system on the Iraqis, be it Christianity, atheism or whatever. [although in reality, it is the god of Free Trade Agreements that will eventually rule Iraq]

    How do justify your view? And do really not realize that that mentality causes even more probelms? Your god is no more truer than their god...and both sides are willing to spill a lot of blood to prove it.

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  49. "Your god is no more truer than their god...and both sides are willing to spill a lot of blood to prove it"

    Regardless of your religion, every person with a brain has to accept the truth of the last part of the above statement.

    In fact, those theists who assert their faith as fact (ie. "The God of the Bible is the only God", "The Quran is truth", etc ad nauseum) are very much responsible for that blood.

    How difficult is it to accept that you disagree with people, and *not* shove it in their faces?

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  50. {{{Craig said...
    Patti,
    I hope your child returns to you safe and sound. }}}

    Thank you
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    {{{Many don't and are being failed miserably by the our Dear Godly Leader. }}}

    Yes, I know. Can you do something concrete? I volunteer to sew special garments for wounded veterans. See here: http://www.sewmuchcomfort.org/index.asp

    I don't live near a base so I am limited to doing something a bit more detached - but those near bases can do much more. Don't sit back and expect the government to solve all the problems - they can't no matter who is in office.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    {{{Patty, are you aware that before the invasion there was a thriving Christian community in Iraq? }}}

    Yes, but not in other countries like Afganistan or Saudi Arabia.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    {{{Tariq Assiz, Saddam's foriegn minister, is a Christian. Saddam was a awful, awful man but since the occupation started the Christians have been ethnically cleansed from Iraq,}}}

    Yes, I am aware. It is well documented on Voice of the Martyrs.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    {{{women are being forced back to the hajib, a form of sharia law is codefied and the new government is closely aligned with Iran. Well done.}}}

    I do not know if we should have gone into Iraq - and it wasn't my decision to make - nor could I influence it. As for Iran coming in - much was bungled in trying to be nice in the war - what a contradiction in terms.

    But it wasn't Iran that held one man's family at gunpoint and ordered the father to kill his son for helping the Americans. It was Iraqis. And I could give you incident after incident of similar goings on. Without acknowledging tribal rule much was lost.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    {{{Framing this war in spiritual terms isn't helpful, it's counter-productive. It wasn't too long ago Maliki went nuts over U.S. soldiers evangelizing the Iraqis. Stirring up the Crusades is insane when your supposedly trying to win hearts and minds.}}}

    I am only talking about the freedom to hear and decide without threat of punishment. Many missionaries have done great work. Hudson Taylor helped many in China. Livingston was so honored by those native peoples he worked with they walked for weeks to carry his body out of the jungle to be buried in England. All missionaries aren't fruit cakes.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    {{{I'm worried we're going to repeat this colossal blunder in Iran.}}}

    It is worrisome. But no more so than any other time period in history.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    {{{ I'm beggin you to get as much information about what's going on before you vote this year. There's more to this election than moose burgers. The Christian and the Hero are shamelessly lying, repeatedly, and they're getting away with it. Will you hold them to account.}}}

    It is quite a quandry. I don't care for either party's candidates. I haven't decided how I will vote - or if I will.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    {{{Sorry for rambling but it's urgent we don't sacrifice more of our sons and daughters to this misguided cause.}}}

    I can tell you are passionate about your beliefs. That is good. And you are free to spread them for others to hear. That is good. And you won't be killed for holding those beliefs. That is very good :)

    I don't know how this will turn out. I have always wished that if I could just know how it all turned out - good or bad - then I could handle it better - it is the not knowing that is so hard. But I also have an unshakeable faith that does tell me that ultimately the Lord wins and he will reign.

    Have you ever been face to face with evil. I don't think I have, but my son has. I used to think that I had, but after my son described to me what he saw on the faces of those firing uzis aimed at him, I know I haven't seen true unbridled evil.

    None of you have any idea how bad it can really get if evil gets the upper hand - and my Bible says that one day evil will have the upper hand on this earth - right before Jesus comes to give it back to his followers.

    Blessings,
    Patti

    ReplyDelete
  51. {{{NaFa said...
    Patti
    I also like to extend my best wishes to your son and hope for his safe return.}}}

    Thank you.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    {{{You are right in saying that no matter how we got there, the fact is we are there now, so we need to make the best of it. However, I'm sure you and I would disagree on what 'making the best of it' means.}}}

    I'm sure (bg)
    Anything less than a recognizable victory dishonors every man and women that set foot in that country. I'm not sure I see that happening.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    {{{I see absolutley no reason why we should even think that we have the right to push (not even force,but to advocate) any 'spiritual' belief system on the Iraqis, be it Christianity, atheism or whatever.}}}

    They have the right to hear. No one should be forced. Nor should they fear for their lives because of their decision - no matter what that decision is.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    {{{[although in reality, it is the god of Free Trade Agreements that will eventually rule Iraq] }}}

    You got that right! But that doesn't have to be bad. The country needs some prosperity (that benefits all the people) that is for sure.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    {{{How do justify your view? And do really not realize that that mentality causes even more probelms? Your god is no more truer than their god...and both sides are willing to spill a lot of blood to prove it.}}}

    I'm not willing for any blood to be spilled in the name of religion.

    Among his other duties, Dh is the district coordinator of social studies. Lots of compnaies and organizations send him preview material (usually DVD's) hoping to get it into the schools. Since he has no time to sit and watch most of it - my kids and I are his "evaluators". Right now there seems to be a flood of materials regarding the civil rights movements of the 60's.

    MLK Jr. was a preacher of the Gospel. He advocated peace - but change. Granted his public message was more political than religious - but was he in the fringe lunatic crowd? Was his message counted as less valid because he referenced God and he prayed? Was his message less true because many gave their lives for those changes? I know this is an imperfect analogy - but I think it still had merit as I have seen many hours of actual footage from those troubled times. And it wasn't a quick fix either - all changes take a lot of time when you are speaking of societal norms being toppled.

    Blessings,
    Patti

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  52. Patti,

    I'm not suggesting you personally are willing to spill blood but that this is a consequence when 2 parties clash which have a fervent belief to particular ideaologies. Sometimes this clash in nessacary and unavoidable, but usally it's not, imho.

    Re: MLK

    I agree, in America every citizen should have the freedom to publically expose others to any and all views and every citizen should have the freedom to be exposed to any and all views if they chose. In America. I don't see how the right to that freedom extends beyond our borders.

    Futhermore, foriegn policy is meant to be based of self-interest. Acting in regard to what is best for ones own country. This leads to ethecial dilemas of course, but that's the way the game is played. Prothelyzing Christianity in war with Muslims seems counter-productive to me, again, imho.

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  53. NaFa said: Prothelyzing Christianity in war with Muslims seems counter-productive to me, again, imho.

    I couldn't agree more - there's no need for humility. Two groups with absolute faith that their belief systems represent 100% Truth from The Guy Who Made Everything - and both trying to convince each other of this for the last 2000 years.

    Christians and Muslims have been killing each other for several millennia, all because of this intractability of opinion. You'd think they would have learned a little humility by now...

    ReplyDelete
  54. {{{...I don't see how the right to that freedom extends beyond our borders.}}}
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    This (below) should sound familar - and seems to be universal in application. My argument would be that it wasn't our governement to overthrow - and I am not sure we were as clearly asked to help as was the case in Kuwait.

    Too much politics for me - I tend to be a person that lives in the now and how can we move forward to make it better now.

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

    Have to go for now -
    Blessings,
    Patti

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  55. Patti,

    Thanks for understanding my anger towards your opinion of this issue.

    You said:

    "Closer to what I mean is that there is a war going on - whether we want to be in it or not - for men's souls (that's the spiritual aspect of what I am trying to say.) The Middle East was locked up and impenetrable to outsiders. The people weren't free - they were in horrible bondage to a false religion of works and suppression."

    There is absolutely no independently verifiable proof whatsoever that this is true.

    There is absolutely no independently verifiable proof whatsoever that people have souls.

    This is part of what makes your belief system dangerous to the core. You believe things that you can not prove, indoctrinate others into it and proclaim it as fact when in all actually it is anything but.


    You said:

    " I don't believe God caused the war - but uses it to do the work of setting people free from spiritual bondage."

    Using your completely unverifiable beliefs to substantiate any claim regarding war (or anything else) is insane and horrendously dangerous.

    Tell the Iraqi civilians who have been killed or who are being affected by the colossal fuck up of a war that your god is there to set them free from spiritual bondage.


    Patti, what the hell are you thinking??? Seriously!!


    You said:

    "I am sorry to say that there has often been those that bring shame to the name of God by their antics (just as a btw - I don't put Ray in that category - I am thinking more along the lines of Joseph Smith and Jim Jones)but imbedded within true Chirstianity there are many good - but very imperfect -people."

    If you can't see through Comfort by now then I've given you way too much credit.

    And don't start knocking someone else's religious figureheads until you realize how insane your own are.

    Of course, I think Smith was a lying lunatic, but what right or room do you have to criticize him when you have beliefs that are equally as illogical and insane and support your own religious figureheads that have beliefs that are as equally outrageous??


    You said:

    "I can't give you verifiable proof that fits your standard. "

    And that's the problem. You can't give proof for any of your wacky religious beliefs just like any other religious person can't. But yet you keep peddling them as if they are factual.


    You said:

    "And even if there was no religion - people would still wage wars for power and money. "

    That's not the point. People will always fight.

    The point was that if there were no religion maybe mankind would have a shot at thinking critically and logically from the get go instead of being indoctrinated into this absurdity.

    You said:

    " People should be free to hear and then accept or reject what they wish to follow (but then I am somewhat idealistic too.)"

    Yes, they should. BUT WHEN YOU INDOCTRINATE KIDS INTO THIS CRAZY SHIT FROM BIRTH YOU ARE NOT GIVING THEM A CHANCE TO CHOOSE!!

    You are setting them up to believe insane superstitious garbage that does not promote autonomy, critical thinking, logic or reason.

    ReplyDelete
  56. nafa said...

    [although in reality, it is the god of Free Trade Agreements that will eventually rule Iraq]

    nafa,
    actually it will be the god of no-bid contracts will rule.

    Patti said...

    Yes, I know. Can you do something concrete?

    Thanks for what you are doing, patti. I have contributed to operation helmet, Iraq and Afghanistan Vets (Paul Reichoff's group) and items for care packages. I've also volunteered to phone bank for Obama who's policy on I & Afg. are now being adopted by Pres. Bush.
    I could be doing more. Thanks for the kick in the pants.

    You said...

    Don't sit back and expect the government to solve all the problems - they can't no matter who is in office.

    No, but they have an obligation to our vets. Some leaders do much better than others. Gov. can't solve all problems but this administration has exacerbated them.

    You said...

    As for Iran coming in - much was bungled in trying to be nice in the war - what a contradiction in terms.

    But it wasn't Iran that held one man's family at gunpoint and ordered the father to kill his son for helping the Americans. It was Iraqis. And I could give you incident after incident of similar goings on. Without acknowledging tribal rule much was lost.

    Do you think shock and awe, allowing the country to be looted, throwing people out of work, flattening cities (Fallujah), torture, white phosphorous, depleted uranium, etc. was being nice? Remember, this was sold as a liberation.

    My point on Iran is that they're the next boogyman and the Iraq war has made them a stronger player in the region. The incident you described is horrific. I could give you a list of horrific incidents commited by U.S. forces but it shouldn't reflect on the vast majority those serving there.

    You said...

    Have you ever been face to face with evil. I don't think I have, but my son has. I used to think that I had, but after my son described to me what he saw on the faces of those firing uzis aimed at him, I know I haven't seen true unbridled evil.

    None of you have any idea how bad it can really get if evil gets the upper hand - and my Bible says that one day evil will have the upper hand on this earth - right before Jesus comes to give it back to his followers.

    Patti, the guy on the other end of that uzi might think he's looking at pure evil. Maybe his family was killed by U.S. troops or a suicide bomber and he blames the occupiers for unleashing a civil war. I'm not excusing that guy but we can't know his experience.

    When you call all of "them" pure evil and us good that gets to the crux of the bisquet. Now you are putting it in religious terms and their religion is evil. Personally I think they're all nonsense and the sooner we get out, safely, the better. Finish the job in Afghanistan.

    Also, the same imperialist cabal that pushed for the Iraq war are pushing for war with Iran and they're working for McCain.

    Patti, I can't imagine what it's like to have your son there. My best wishes for his and all service members a safe and speedy return.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Okay - I read it.
    A few key points.
    1. the fact that the term "dominionist" is flung around to any and every group with a Bible tells me the writer is clueless as to what the term actually means.

    That's not what the writer did. He's only referring to a few radical groups and what they have links to. He links to the articles that talked about the dominionist groups. If you'd bothered to click on and read those, you'd know that.

    2. Calling the SBC dominionist and fundamental is highly innaccurate and tells me they really are just using some hot button terms to rile up the readers.
    Just do some reading on the SBC; they're the ones who supported slavery when they first formed, weren't they?


    3. The article does admit that the chaplins that were out of line were considered "rogue".

    Yes, and the linked articles point out that the Bush administration really hasn't done much to curtail this activity. As some of the linked articles note, some high ranking military officials are involved.

    4. I knew about the Bible Coins and I agree that the soldiers should not be doing evangelism of that type. I do know that these issues are being dealt with in training for the troops now going over.
    At least that's one thing we can agree on.

    5. To drag Pat Tillman into that article was reprehensible.
    So is this.

    6. and finally - so the people of Iraq are to be given no choice in seeking after the true God because it is contenscious? They should be forced to stay in Islam, even if they don't want to, because the other Moslems might get angry. That is so hypocritical.

    You're not getting it. The army is a branch of the gov't. The gov't by it's own consitution and rules is supposed to be neutral in regards to religion.

    You should have done some of the reading from the links that article gave:

    The announcement by Franklin Graham and Southern Baptist Convention president Jack Graham of plans to proselytize in postwar Iraq have predictably deepened the hostility of the Muslim world to America's invasion of Iraq. In the aftermath of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Graham called Islam "a violent and wicked religion";
    A rare point that he and I would agree on, though not just islam...

    the Islamic Web site Khilafah.com characterized Graham's plans as "enhancing the conviction among some Arabs and Muslims that the U.S.-led war of aggression on Iraq is part of a new 'crusade campaign.'" Khilafah.com has followed by issuing a downloadable prayer pamphlet called "Destroy the Fourth Crusader War," which reads like the antithesis of In Touch's "A Christian's Duty," urging readers to pray against Bush and take up jihad against the U.S. and Britain.

    It had been promised to the counties over there that this sort of thing would not happen. The Muslims, unlike the West, happen to remember history; which includes the xian crusades.

    ***How would you feel if your country was invaded under false pretenses and the invading soldiers were trying to spread their religion in your country?***


    Since the stated reason for the Iraq war has been revealed to be an obvious lie, what other reason are they supposed to believe? In their minds it is the crusades all over again. And some are reacting to it as if it is:

    During the Lebanon conflict, Oliver says the Marines worked "hand-in-glove" with Pat Robertson and his Christian Broadcasting Network while he broadcast his overtly pro-American, pro-Israel sermons throughout the country. Despite the Marines' fate there and the reports of Islamic militants filtering into Iraq to wage jihad against what they view as a new "crusade," the Bush administration has not visibly discouraged ministers like Stanley and Graham from repeating Robertson's actions. With its credibility at stake, an American-led interim government looks likely to dig in in Iraq for a long and delicate occupation of Arab land with a group of Southern Baptist evangelicals by its side. And a battle of biblical proportions may be just beginning.

    ReplyDelete
  58. This is in response to John 3:16 on that post, just in case my reply doesn't make it through there.


    ------
    Hey John. Care to tell us which creationist tract you got these quotes from? I'm betting that you did not do any research on your own to find them, since they're out of context and the passages leading to the quotes themselves are more eloquent than what I've seen you be capable of. I'll do just two of them, since I recognize the names.


    John 3:16
    One of the most famous proponents of the theory of evolution was the late Harvard paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould. But Gould admitted the following:
    “The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils...We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life’s history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study.”

    Go to the Quote Mine Project in the Talk Origins Archive, scroll down to the Third Quote Mine Project: Gould, Eldredge and Punctuated Equilibria Quotes, and go to the second quote there.


    The senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History, Dr. Colin Patterson, put it this way:
    “Gradualism is a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin’s authority, but because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it. Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils....I will lay it on the line — there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.”

    Please for once in your lives, could you people even try to see if what you're quoting is actually in context?

    For the Patterson quote, go to (yet again), the Talk Origins archive, and enter into their search engine the phrase Patterson Misquoted: A Tale of Two 'Cites'. You'll see the rest of the story there.


    I suspect that if one goes to the quote mine project to check up your other quotes, you'll find the same thing...stuff left out that completely changes the meaning of the quote, or the quote is out of date.

    And you people whine about how we "quote-mine" the bible??


    So, atomic chimp, how’s your faith in evolution now?
    Probably a lot more justified than his faith in lying evangelists.

    ReplyDelete
  59. {{{Just do some reading on the SBC; they're the ones who supported slavery when they first formed, weren't they?}}}

    Been in the group and active in it's policies for many years.
    It is quite possible they were unopposed to slavery when they formed - it is irrelevant today and I don't really care to dig for this info.

    In the here and now they are not dominionists and they are not fundamental. Probably more evangelical. A lot of the actual fundamental churches split out of the SBC becasue they considered it too liberal.

    Not that anyone really cares, but we recently left the SBC for this reason. Each church is actually autonomous but join together for cooperative efforts in ministry. Many SBC churches, especially in rural areas remain very conservative, but the convention as a whole is experiencing shift and turmil and we no longer wanted any of our cooperative dollars to go to many of the programs they were now producing - so for that and some other reasons we left for an independent, fundamental church that is small but very active in evangelism.

    So don't tell me I don't know SBC beleifs and where they fall in the plethora of defining terms.

    Blessings,
    Patti

    ReplyDelete
  60. Hi,
    Not in a rude or angry way - but I can't spend time going point for point to continue this (very good) discussion.

    Just a general comment or two and if you want me to reply to something specific I will if you say so directly to me - I get the comments to this thread in my mailbox, so if it is in this thread, I will be aware of it.

    General comment 1.

    This started out very long and rambling - but boring - cutting to the chase - I find it very close minded that you can ony accept that a "sheeple" will follow Jesus. For a group so "educated" and "free-thinking", you are very closed off to any outside thought that doesn't fit your reality.

    I was making speeches and writing against apartied in the early 70's before most Americans even had a clue it existed - never mind pronounce it. Can you make a guess as to how big an audience it attracted then?) My husband and I have practiced educational reforms for the last 20 years that are only now coming into "vogue" with the mainstream thinking. So don't accuse me of leaving my brain out in the rain and being a Kool-Aide drinker.

    General comment 2 -
    I mis spoke on tow things about Iraq. It wasn't uzis - it was AK47's. And I definitley do not lable all the Iraqi's as "them". I was speaking of the terrorists. My son found the people there very friendly and warm. The terrorists were pure evil. That has nothing to do with their religion - that is only a cover for their politics.

    Blessings,
    Patti

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  61. patti,

    Who are the terrorists? Is is just the remnants of Al Quaida in Iraq or the Mahdi Army or other Shiite militias or the Sunni insurgents who used to shoot at and blow up Americans until we started paying them not to? Or is anyone there fighting for control of their own country a terrorist and pure evil? It's not so black and white, patti.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Craig asked:
    patti,
    Who are the terrorists? Is is just the remnants of Al Quaida in Iraq or the Mahdi Army or other Shiite militias or the Sunni insurgents who used to shoot at and blow up Americans until we started paying them not to? Or is anyone there fighting for control of their own country a terrorist and pure evil? It's not so black and white, patti.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    That's the philosophical argument. :) If you're a soldier the terrorist is the one holding the Ak47 and shooting at you. No philosophy on the battle field - and there it is black and white.

    Blessings,
    Patti

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  63. patti said,

    That's the philosophical argument. :) If you're a soldier the terrorist is the one holding the Ak47 and shooting at you. No philosophy on the battle field - and there it is black and white.

    patti,

    If we're supposedly fighting a war on terror it's a practical argument. We unleashed a civil war there and now we're stuck in the middle. The violence is way down and I'm thankful for that but if you think we should stay there til we achieve victory, I'd like to know what that is. If the goal is a corrupt Shiite theocracy aligned with Iran, a less stable region, a disaffected Sunni minority, an autonomous Kurdish area with no political reconciliation in sight. An ethnically cleansed Baghdad with blast walls separating neighborhoods and no-bid oil contracts to western companies then mission accomplished. I say, yes, declare victory and come home.

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  64. {{{...I say, yes, declare victory and come home. }}}

    Amen.
    Patti

    ReplyDelete

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