I've been thinking about this all day. I can't really stop thinking about it. (I wasn't going to dig back through the comments to find her comment to link to, so Dale I'm using your post.)
I've been working up a pretty good spit over it and I'm about to say something that is going to piss some people off, but I really don't care. If you don't like what I type then do yourself the favor of not reading it.
Jean, since you think slavery isn't wrong if done in a 'godly way', whatever the hell that means, how about you define your terms and I'll give you my address. You can show up and I'll enslave you and I'll do it as closely as I possibly can to the way slavery was done in the bible. No? Why not? By your own admission 'every person is a slave anyway' so what's the difference?
Jean, I am not a slave. I am not a slave to your invisible friend and I am not slave to a mythological character called the devil, as much as you'd like to think I am. You, however, deserve what you get for your line of thinking. With thoughts like that you are just waiting to be taken advantage of and I can't say I'd blame the person who did.
And of all the fucking gall for a black female to say that slavery isn't wrong !!
I'd like to thank you for making the comment you did, Jean. You have let me know that you are too brainwashed and daft for me to ever consider a single word you say as worthy of consideration.
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Ouch.
ReplyDeleteThen again, Abe Lincoln reportedly said something like, "Whenever I hear someone claim that slavery is a good thing, I feel a strong urge to see it tried on him personally."
Exactly, Wee. Personally I don't think her candy ass would last 20 minutes being a slave like the slaves of biblical times.
ReplyDeleteThis is the most perverse, vile, depraved and insidious statements to come from a "Christian" that I have seen in my many years of studying them.
ReplyDeleteI am shocked beyond my wildest expectations. In fact, I am seriously beginning to think we may be dealing with the most disturbing, yet genius of parodies ever portrayed. Her site only contains one post and the music, etcetera seems quite contrived. Perhaps we have been duped?
Dale, I saw lots of posts on her site and look at THIS.
ReplyDeleteThis woman a mental health nurse????? A mental patient, I could believe, but a nurse?????
I'm starting to think we've been duped too. Nobody is this bad.
No. I wanna give her to the crew.
ReplyDeleteSurely Jean realizes that with female slaves, sex was involved.
Nonmagical thinking wrote:
ReplyDelete"I'd like to thank you for making the comment you did, Jean. You have let me know that you are too brainwashed and daft for me to ever consider a single word you say as worthy of consideration."
This is the perfect take away point. One of the (many, many) things that drives me batshit about talking to Raynaics is that they so often dance around telling us what they really believe. Jean does the entire discourse a great service by laying bare the despicable side of fundementalist Christianity.
Not only does drinking the Fool-Aid kill the intellectual capacity to understand evolution, for instance, it also perverts people's moral sense to the point that they accept anything the tyrant in the sky says. And when that tyrant is a creation of ancient people, slavery, genocide of neighboring tribes, and other things that society has largely learned to reject become ookily-dookily.
Nonmagical Thinking, if you really had been abducted by aliens, you should have stayed up there with them. There may not be any intelligent life down here afterall.
She needs to read the writings of Frederick Douglass. According to him, the more religious a slave-owner was, the worse he was.
ReplyDeleteAnd, for your reading displeasure, here's the submissive wives article:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.fabulousmag.co.uk/features/feature_submissive_wives_issue_022.php
...and this is the frontpage of the paper's Web site, a complete rag:
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/index.shtml#more_news
P.S. I question how real this story is, or at least question whether it hasn't been sensationalized to the point of misrepresenting the truth.
ReplyDeleteThe whole thing has the "playing it up for the cameras" feel of reality TV.
Geoff,
ReplyDeleteThanks for digging that up !!
I can't even start reading that submissive wives crap, just look at the byline:
GIVE IP WORK TO STAY AT HOME AND BACK CUPCAKES FOR YOUR MAN? HEAVEN OR HELL? YOU DECIDE...
Give ip ?? Back cupcakes?? Since she got her advice from a garbage rag spelling error ridden article like this, I'm calling Poe's Law on this woman.
Yeah. I'm starting to smell a rat, too. [Puts rat back in pocket]
ReplyDeleteI'm starting to think we're being scammed too.
Hmmmm Jean shows up Ranting disappears. Way to go RS!!
ReplyDeleteWell, I'VE never seen Jean and RS in the same room together.
ReplyDeletenon-believers,
ReplyDeleteI don't think you guys quite understand what the Bible has to say about slavery.
Perhaps, you might want to take a look at an essay by Richard G. pertaining to this very topic.
http://christianessays.freeservers.com/slaves.htm
I would copy and paste, but it is quite long, but worth the read.
Oh, and btw, I acknowledge the fact that everyone has freedom of speech, but if you guys(some, not all) would treat Christian's more respectively, and not belittle, ridicule, or mock us and our beliefs, then more Christian's would reply to your comments.
You guys are honestly making me rethink that the atheist/non-believers only reasonable answers to Christians are to attack them verbally with cruelty. In my opinion it does not become any of you at all.
I guess all I am asking for is a little respect, as far as I can tell, Jean has not cursed at any of you or belittled any of you in any way. Why not treat her the same way she has treated you.
In Christian Love,
Brittany
Brittany,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad to see you posting here regularly. You're definitely in the minority, but at least you have the courage of your convictions to put them out there, knowing full well that you might take a lot of berating for it.
That said, I think that what we're lashing out against isn't so much Jean as a person (although I'm starting to wonder if she's for real now as well). It's more the outrageous things that she's saying that gets us all lathered up. Do some of us go over-the-top? Yeah. But considering that we had to censor ourselves on Ray's blog, we like to let it all hang out here.
That said, you are correct that some atheists do resort to personal attacks. What you need to realize though is that oftentimes Christians come off as being very patronizing and insulting in their own way. Would you agree that it's possible to be just as insulting without actually using any harsh words?
When Christians tell us that we need to be saved and that there's something wrong with us (we're "fools" apparently) then we feel pretty darned insulted. We respond in kind; it's just that we're more likely to take the direct approach.
I'm sure that Jean has the same mindset that Vera has. Such as, concerning all the genocide committed by the Israelites; they were better off, even the children. Howdy is right about the sex. I don't think the Israelites kept all the Midianite girls who hadn't had sex so they could pursue romantic courtly love. Now I'm going to try to read the piece that Brittany mentioned.
ReplyDeleteWell, first of all, the essay is by Richard Gunther. One of Ray's buddies. Second of all, it's the same old bullshit spin.
ReplyDeleteQUOTE
ReplyDelete"From what I can discover in other books on the subject, compared to the Babylonians, the Phoenicians, the Philistines, the Syrians, the Egyptians, the Romans and many other nations, the treatment of servants and slaves in Israel was dignified, humane and respectful. In fact, it is quite likely that poor or disadvantaged people from other nations looked with envy at the servants and slaves within Israel’s borders."
You see, silly atheist's, you would be lucky to be a slave (or really a servant) of a Hebrew!
Thanks for clearing that up Brittany
You find nothing wrong with this??
Wow, here I thought that it was Christians who worked for years to dismantle the slave trade (thanks for reminding me, weemaryanne). And has anyone read the book of Philemon?
ReplyDeleteSlavery was a common practice in biblical times (and still is in some areas of the world). Some slaves were treated well, almost as members of the family, some were treated despicably. I would posit to you, that if you are anything other than an independently wealthy business owner, then you are a type of slave (I believe the term is "wage slave"). I've certainly felt like a slave in some of the jobs I've held over the years. Much love, F.G.
Brit's article ellipsis's out some important parts of Exodus 21. Check out verse four. It's "Hey, Mr Slave, you're free to go but I'm keeping the wife and kids...." Doesn't seems so nice to me.
ReplyDeleteJust to play devil's advocate (har har) for a moment: If I'm not mistaken, the only way to become a slave in Biblical times was to either be born into slavery or to commit a particular sort of crime for which enslavement was punishment. To the best of my knowledge, neither situation describes Jean (at least, I certainly hope not!), so I imagine she could use that as an excuse to weasel out of becoming your slave.
ReplyDeleteAnd Brittany's linked article also stops quoting Leviticus before it gets to this:
ReplyDeleteLeviticus 25:45 You may also purchase the children of temporary residents who live among you, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property 46 passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.
Hey nonmagical thinking,
ReplyDeleteThat was my idea, enslaving Jean! Just because I happen to live in Europe, and we have a slightly different timezone, doesn't mean you can go around stealing my potential slaves! So she's mine, all mine!
OK, back to serious, I have to agree wit everyone, that she is completely off the wall. She's completely bat shit crazy. Perhaps she should read a bit about slavery before condoning it.
Although I do wonder how it could possibly be done in a godly manner.
Care to explain that Jean?
Slavery is the second most vile, degenerate idea ever to have come from the human mind. Care to guess what's on number one?
Still if she wants to be enslaved, I'm sure my wife could use some help around the house and with the kids, so send her over.
I wouldn't mind being Jean's slave.
ReplyDeleteI bet she has a badonkadonk butt too.
Wow, here I thought that it was Christians who worked for years to dismantle the slave trade
ReplyDeleteThis is true, but it ignores the fact that there were Christians who kept it going for an even longer period of time.
I mean, it's not like there are any Christians living in the South, right? Oh. Wait...
I'd be interested to learn of Jean's background.
ReplyDeleteHer blog says she comes from Zimbabwe. I'd like to know what religion she was before she was a Christian and how she became one. Also, the status of women in Zimbabwe.
Well, this isn't at all on topic, but for the hell of it, you people may want to see how philosopher Stephen Law is handling Circular Sye.
ReplyDeleteI'll say this, the man's got more patience than all of us put together.
These people are just so unwilling to even glance critically at their beliefs that they will say any ridiculous thing to avoid doing so. And they even believe what they are saying.
ReplyDeleteIt's a big problem that people today are not encouraged to be critical. Instead, anytime they say something that supports their faith, no matter how ridiculous, they are rooted on by nearly everyone around them.
But when politicians and family members and pastors and the media are repeating all of these things, and never even bothering to think critically, it's no wonder rational thought is unpopular and hard to come by.
Oh, and she can tie me up in a straight jacket.
ReplyDeleteDo you know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slave whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to rightousness? Romans 6:16
ReplyDeleteVerse 22: But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
No servant (slave) can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. Luke 16:13.
Jean,
ReplyDeleteQuoting your bible at us does absolutely nothing.
We do not believe that your book of fairy tales is the inerrant word of any god, and therefore what it says holds no sway over us.
@Jean--
ReplyDeleteWho are you really?
Come on. You had your fun. Ray put you up to this?
What black woman actually speaks in defense of slavery?
You're playing us. Okay, joke's over. Come on--submit.
Jean,
ReplyDeleteIn discussing slavery, we're not talking about the relationship, if any, because human and deity. What we're talking about is earthly slavery -- that is, where both the enslaver and the enslaved are human beings. Our problem is that you think that human slavery is perfectly acceptable under certain circumstances -- to wit, so long as it's "godly."
We atheists tend to believe that human slavery is absolutely antithetical to any possible, rationally defensible system of morality. That is, there is no rationally defensible system of morality that permits human slavery. You obviously believe otherwise, and so we believe that your system of morality is rationally indefensible.
Can you give us any reason whatsoever, other than "it's in the Bible," to believe that human slavery is morally acceptable?
One of the most vile types of slavery that exist still at this very moment is many woman and children all around the world are in forced into the sex-trade. I have no idea the number, at least probaly 10s of thousands, maybe millions.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how god works out this ethical paradox of his love for slavery and his hatered for fornication. Poor god, it's tough being on the top.
BTW, I been away for a while, who's this Nonmagical Thinking lady, I liked FD a lot better! ;)
Brittany,
ReplyDeleteI don't think you guys quite understand what the Bible has to say about slavery.
Brittany, do you think that because we are atheist that we have never read your bible and that we can't possibly understand it??
I've read it. Several times. I understand it, I just think it is rubbish.
Every time topics like this come up where there is something obviously insane in your holy book some fundy always comes along and says 'Oh, read this or read that' as if having yet another apologist explain it is going to make any difference. It says what it says Brittany. You can't have it both ways. Fundys want it to be literal when it suits them and need the explanation of some apologist when it says things that make you guys look bad.
Oh, and btw, I acknowledge the fact that everyone has freedom of speech, but if you guys(some, not all) would treat Christian's more respectively, and not belittle, ridicule, or mock us and our beliefs, then more Christian's would reply to your comments.
Jean's comments didn't deserve any respect. You fundies want to tell us how every single atheist is going to burn forever and that we are all murderers and thieves and liars and you come here bitching about respect? Go curl up with your holy book and dream about slavery, genocide, and all the other crap it talks about as being ok that is clearly disgusting.
You guys are honestly making me rethink that the atheist/non-believers only reasonable answers to Christians are to attack them verbally with cruelty. In my opinion it does not become any of you at all.
Yes, please lump us all together...AGAIN. There are 25 or 26 people on this blog and we all have different personalities and treat the subjects that come up in different ways. I call it as I see it and I rarely hold anything back. Like I said in my post if you don't like what I write, scroll right on past it to someone else that will kiss your ass when you say that slavery is just fine. I'm not gonna do it and I'm not going to try to do it to appease any other atheist that thinks I should.
I guess all I am asking for is a little respect, as far as I can tell, Jean has not cursed at any of you or belittled any of you in any way.
Jean belittles the experience and hardship of every single human being that has ever been through a slavery situation when she spews that crap about slavery being okay.
And there we go back on that respect issue, when by calling all of us murderers, liars, fools, ect. you continually disrespect us.
Why not treat her the same way she has treated you.
I did. She said something stupid and vile and I responded in kind.
I have never been rude to a moderate Christian that doesn't treat atheists the way you fundies do. (Unless it's some pedo priest or some Pentecostal dolt.) But if you come around telling me that I'm a murderer, a liar, a thief and can't possibly ever do anything right in the eyes of you or your deity when you don't even know me, then yes, I will treat you with the ridicule, scorn and disrespect that you deserve for shoveling it out to me first.
Now you go have a fine day Brittany.
nafa said,
ReplyDeleteI been away for a while, who's this Nonmagical Thinking lady, I liked FD a lot better! ;)
Perhaps, but NMT is cute!!
And married, as I understand it. Grump, grump.
Nafa, I saw that. ;)
ReplyDeleteDave, thanks ! Yep, I'm firmly entrenched in matrimony.
ReplyDeleteBrittany,
ReplyDeleteI read Richard Gunther's essay, and it misrepresents the Bible. In fact, the misrepresentation is so gross that it must be called a lie.
For instance, here is what Richard says,
If a master hurt his slave was automatically allowed to go free – Ex.21:26,27.
Now here is what the Bible really says:
20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
26 "If a man hits a manservant or maidservant in the eye and destroys it, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And if he knocks out the tooth of a manservant or maidservant, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the tooth.
[emphasis mine]
After Richard discusses the difference between a servant and a slave, he then falsely claims that injured slaves are allowed to go free if they are hurt. But the Bible clearly says that a master can beat a slave so badly that the slave is down for a day or two. As long as the slave gets up eventually, the master is within his rights.
That's reprehensible. The Bible was written by humans at a time when slavery was not flat-out condemned, so the passages above reflect a clarification on rules, not a condemnation of the entire practice.
Brittany, take a look for yourself.
Geoff,
ReplyDeleteAnd that's why I have such disdain for apologetics. A lot of Christians don't even know what the bible says, they only know what some apologist says and most of the time what the apologist said is a total misrepresentation of the bible.
That was a good comment.
I've found that one of the best ways to get a Christian to start seriously thinking critically about their faith is to encourage them to actually read their Bible - cover to cover, not just the good bits that the preachers and apologists cherry-pick.
ReplyDeleteThe OT, in particular, is a veritable minefield.
Brittany said:
ReplyDeleteI guess all I am asking for is a little respect, as far as I can tell, Jean has not cursed at any of you or belittled any of you in any way.
Brittany,
A comment, jean's, can be obscene without cursing. She also said I was a spawn of the devil or something.
Fireman's gal,
I'm self-employed so I guess I'm a slave to myself. I'm going to give myself a good beatin' tonight.
See. No curse words.
Craig,
ReplyDeleteWell said.
Obscene without the use of profanity. Jean is a perfect example. Thanks.