I'm sure if Christians are mainly frequenting Christian blogs (especially apologetics blogs), that they see no profanity, threats, or "disrespect" (whatever that is). Likewise, as an atheist, I frequent atheist blogs, so I don't see much profanity, threats, or "disrespect."
But, also being an atheist who frequents atheist blogs, I see much profanity, hate mongering, threats, and disrespect coming from Christians. Can we sum it up with simply the Westboro Baptist Church? If not, how about Psalms 14:1. I don't mean the cutesy little thing that Ray quotes to justify calling us fools (which is disrespectful name calling right there):
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.But how often do we hear Christians calling in with threats or insults to The Atheist Experience? And what of the whole cracker fiasco on Pharyngula? Are we to believe that the good Christian who threatened PZ's children and said he would beat his face in is somehow more respectful than Clostridiophile's "Jesus Titty Fucking Christ" comment?
Anyway, the post is on my blog. It's really because I'm rather tired of the generalization. Yes, some atheists do use profanity and insults. Don't make a hasty generalization, though. We, as far as I have seen, don't do it to Christians on behalf of the God Hates Fags crowd or the numerous Christian commenters who insult, threaten, and cuss at us.
Posts
You are saying that anyone wearing an "I'm a Christian" nametag is a true Christian... And without getting into the popular "no true scotsman" argument, I'm going to point out that, regardless of your notions that God condones slavery or rape, what you witness people doing in the name of God, whether they are wearing a pope hat, or a pinky ring with a bad hair piece as they step out of their Rolls Royce, is not the Biblical practice of Christianity.
ReplyDeleteI could draw a cartoon of Mohammed playing tiddly winks with an ape, and then sign the image, "Your friendly Infidel Atheist" but that wouldn't make it so...
Our complaint (and here I have no right to speak on behalf of all Christians, though I will) is not that we believe we deserve your respect... It is just that your disdain is so appalling - even to the point of distraction from the topic that we might actually prefer to comment on...
You make a point on your own blog, yet the point is so bogged down in filth that it is difficult to make out the statement from the "colorful metaphors" as Mr. Spock would put it...
I have never, and would never use a brush that paints all atheists as profane degenerates... But when you categorize all Christians in with those of Westboro, who do not align with scripture (the WHOLE word of God) outside of their own 3 or 4 verses that they will chant straight into hell - you are committing the very crime you accuse us of...
Fools yes, wicked, sure... No more or less than I am / was...
I'm not saying that you are without hope, as the Westboro clan would... I am not going to shoot at you in order to stop you from carrying out your plans in life as some have...
God hates homosexuals, yes, and liars, and thieves, and adulterers, and idolaters, covetous, disobedient, blasphemers... Psalm 5:5...
But He has provided a way for us all to be saved from His judgment...
Hate Him for it, or do something about it - just don't complain about it when He does exactly what He warned us all He would do...
'Sfunny how bleevers never understand that threatening me with eternal torture ain't 'zackly respectful.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny how believers don't understand that threatening eternal torture just makes us laugh.
ReplyDeleteGuys, really - we don't believe in your hell. We have long since given up the notion that humans need to be threatened in order to act in a kind way towards others. We have long since given up the comforting yet ignorant notions of a 'life after death.'
You can't scare us and we can't be controlled with idle threats like you are. Appeal to my reason and not my emotion.
Weemaryanne said...
ReplyDelete'Sfunny how bleevers never understand that threatening me with eternal torture ain't 'zackly respectful.
Well, believers will tell you that it's not they who are threatening. It's their god making that blanket threat against all "sinners". Of course, it IS the believers who consistently aim that threat at those of their own choosing.
Many of the folks who say they're saying away from our blog are doing so because they're put off by our "venom" as benjamin has phrased it elsewhere. By a happy coincidence, many of them are denizens of Ray's blog.
ReplyDeleteBut these future street evangelists can't function if someone utters profanity around them, it seems. Let one of the damned mention the tiniest little curseword and they get the vapors, and all they can think of is "Gotta get back to Ray!". One of ours posted a comment on benjamin's blog that had profanity in it. But did benjamin just erase the durty werds and let the comment itself stand? No--He erased the whole post. Just like Ray does.
This raises the question: Where are these folks planning to set up their soapbox and pamphlet-filled suitcase anyway? Temple Square in Salt Lake City? Hey--They don't use too much profanity in Antarctica!
If they were serious about girding their loins to battle Satan's minions, they'd be over here in droves! But they're not.
No, any evangelist that can't be present when people use salty or coarse language isn't much of an evangelist. It's like a cop who prefers to avoid crime situations because they're just too upsetting.
What you guys have to understand is that, ultimately, people like Benjamin up there aren't threatening people with hell for our sake. They're doing it for their own sake. It's a way of reinforcing their own memetical structure. The internal dialogue goes something like this:
ReplyDelete"Hmm, maybe that atheist has a point."
"No he doesn't."
"But what if he does?"
"If you believe that, you're going to Hell."
"Oh yeah, I forgot about Hell. Hell! You hear that, atheists? You're going to HELL!"
Capt. Howdy I couldn't agree more with your comment. They can consider me their training ground because I am who I am and I'm not going to tone it down when someone starts with speeches and comments that clearly have no basis in critical thinking or logic.
ReplyDeleteBenjamin, if someone tells me that just because I am an atheist that I am a murderer, a liar, a Nazi, no better than Hitler, an adulterer, ect. that is lumping me in with people that I have nothing in common with and making a broad generalization when the person making the claim doesn't even know me.
ReplyDeleteI make a distinction between moderate Christians (like John Shelby Spong who has some interesting things to say) and ones that are simply regurgitating what they've been told and have never had an original thought.
If someone paints me with a broad brush they can expect the same in return.
And Benjamin, that post you wrote about how you hoped I'd found Da Jebus.....well, that was silly.
And benjamin--
ReplyDeleteCredit where it's due.
NMT definitely toned it down for your sake when she told you: And Benjamin, that post you wrote about how you hoped I'd found Da Jebus.....well, that was silly.
I wouldn't have called it 'silly,' benjamin. I'd have called it Ray-tarded.
Benjamin - The Sower sez:
ReplyDeleteAnd without getting into the popular "no true scotsman" argument, I'm going to point out that, regardless of your notions that God condones slavery or rape, what you witness people doing in the name of God, whether they are wearing a pope hat, or a pinky ring with a bad hair piece as they step out of their Rolls Royce, is not the Biblical practice of Christianity.
First, they aren't "our notions", Ben. It's in black & white, right there in your Bible. Nice try, though.
Second, I thought you weren't going to get into the "no true Scotsman" argument. Unfortunately, that's all your opening paragraph is.
I could draw a cartoon of Mohammed playing tiddly winks with an ape, and then sign the image, "Your friendly Infidel Atheist" but that wouldn't make it so...
Are you saying that the people you claim are "no true Christians" are actually counterfeiting their faith, in order to slander Christianity? Really?
Our complaint (and here I have no right to speak on behalf of all Christians, though I will) is not that we believe we deserve your respect... It is just that your disdain is so appalling - even to the point of distraction from the topic that we might actually prefer to comment on...
Two things wrong with that:
One: If I professed a sincere and fervent belief in the Tooth Fairy, would you "respect" my faith? Would you fault anyone who would hold such a "faith" in disdain?
Two: If respect for the beliefs of others is so important, why so much obvious disdain for atheists over on "Atheist Central"? The phrase "practice what you preach" comes to mind.
{{{...If they were serious about girding their loins to battle Satan's minions, they'd be over here in droves! But they're not.
ReplyDeleteNo, any evangelist that can't be present when people use salty or coarse language isn't much of an evangelist. It's like a cop who prefers to avoid crime situations because they're just too upsetting.}}}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I can't answer for anyone else - but I am willing to make a comment to this as to my own reasons.
You are absolutely right - we can't sit all comfy-cozy and engage the enemy (though I suspect that there is plenty of "the enemy" in some of those comfy-cozy places too.)
[*Note - the enemy is not a person of flesh and blood - so I am not refrring to any of you - just to be clear on that.]
I don't feel I can really contribute here for two reasons:
1. It is the "Raytractors". Your purpose is to disparage and detract form a ministry I support. (that is support - not follow blindly as some would suppose - we all have feet of clay.) So I feel it is hypocritical on my part to come here and engage conversation at length at this site, when one of your purposes is to do just that - draw conversation away from Ray's blog.
2. I find that for me, spending a lot of time on atheists blogs is a bit of a downer for me (but I do agree I need to read there to some extent just for the reasons you mention - and contribute if I feel so led.) I don't like purposefully putting myself under the language and themes of the conversations - but it is actually much deeper than that - I see the people - and it makes me so sad that the only hope an atheist has is this present world. I suppose you feel the same way thinking I am deluded - and all the times you are doing ==headdesk== I am doing the same, (just for other reasons) and that can get frustrating. But I am getting stronger in that area - and learning to take it to the Lord and just pray when I get too overwhelmed. I agree that Christinas must engage in some degree of relationship with people from every walk of life - otherwise we are the worst hypocrits of all.
For me, you all are familar and you tend to become a part of my daily thoughts. I don't want to see you lost for eternity. I know you don't believe that - but that is where I am coming from.
Speaking of getting used to you all - I am so very glad to see N. T. here. You are just as cute I as imagined :)
And one last thought:
Why can't you all have your Raytractor list your conversations on your terms here - but still come to Ray's blog too? I know that there are many there that frustrate you (some frustrate me too - and I don't mean only atheists), but you all seem a part of the "family" there, and is it so bad to follow Ray's rules on his blog? You can freely vent here - and actually you can even show posts he wouldn't let through and give you more ammunition for your cause!
Anyway - I just thought I would clarify my reasons for not being a regular contributor here.
Blessings,
Patti
Capt. is right. 'Silly' was not the original thing I typed, but I made the effort to be...civil.
ReplyDeleteCapt., when I read you I hear the voice and see the mannerisms of a young Alan Alda on Mash. You're my Hawkeye. I don't know why I feel the sudden need to tell people these things.
Patti, thank you. I disagree with pretty much all of your theology and I'll argue it with you all day long and part of the night, but I have a soft spot for you for a reason you don't even realize. And for Cynthia too. If you see here, tell her I said hello and I hope she is well.
ReplyDeletefourkid sez:
ReplyDeleteYour purpose is to disparage and detract form a ministry I support.
Really? Apparently, all the posts on this blog that don't specifically reference Ray are offtopic and should be deleted. I should speak to an admin about that...
</snark>
Patti, the original purpose of this blog, as spelled out on the main page, is to provide a forum where interested persons can critique Ray without being subject to his odious rules of censorship. If some of the critiques end up being disparaging and detracting, that's Ray's fault, not ours.
So I feel it is hypocritical on my part to come here and engage conversation at length at this site, when one of your purposes is to do just that - draw conversation away from Ray's blog.
You needn't worry, as "conversation" isn't something that is possible on Ray's site. When posts are delayed for hours, sometimes days, waiting for Ray to check them against his absurd list of no-nos, anything resembling the flow of "conversation" is impossible.
Hey Benjamin,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, thanks for coming. For those of you who don't know, I challenged him to come over here, and it's good to see that he took me up on it.
I'm going to point out that, regardless of your notions that God condones slavery or rape...is not the Biblical practice of Christianity.
Then where are we getting these passages that condone those very things, Benjamin? All I've seen the Christians do is either dismiss them entirely with the "out of context" phrase, or they give me some convoluted explanation that insults my intelligence.
It is just that your disdain is so appalling - even to the point of distraction from the topic that we might actually prefer to comment on...
The thing is, I can see how you might feel that. But can you see how we might feel that about what we hear from Christians?
You make a point on your own blog, yet the point is so bogged down in filth that it is difficult to make out the statement from the "colorful metaphors" as Mr. Spock would put it...
Honestly, I think that you make too much of this. Sure, there are some posts that have a lot, but many have few, and many have none. I don't think that you're being fair.
Hate Him for it, or do something about it
Why won't you people take us at our word that the problem is that we don't believe in him, and what we hate is the fact that you guys present us with a story of a hateful being and try to convince us that it's good? There's a real disconnect here.
Patti,
ReplyDeleteand it makes me so sad that the only hope an atheist has is this present world
No offense, seriously, but you're suffering from a lack of imagination. My wife and I hope to have a child some day, and the lessons that I pass on to her will far outlive me.
That's just one way that my hope extends beyond the present world.
@Benjamin
ReplyDeleteI think you completely failed to grasp the point of the post here, even more so on my blog. You claim that the Christians who are disrespectful, lodge death threats, etc, shouldn't be counted as Christians as they aren't true Christians.
Fine. Those atheists who are disrespectful, use insults, etc, aren't true atheists. In fact, any atheist who does something bad is not a true atheist. What a model bunch of people we atheists have!
And I think you are painting us with a broad stroke of a brush even though you claim not to be. You keep saying "your disdain is so appalling." Whose disdain? The disdain from some atheists? If so, say that.
And my blog bogged down in filth? How? If mine is bogged down in filth, then every blog is bogged down in filth.
But when you categorize all Christians in with those of Westboro [...] you are committing the very crime you accuse us of
Where did I categorize all Christians with the Westboro? I think my exact point was that it would be wrong to categorize all Christians with the Westboro.
I am also not accusing Christians of generalizing atheists of being disrespectful/profane. I was responding specifically to some Christian comments on this blog, my blog, Ray's blog, and your comments.
NMT--
ReplyDeleteCapt., when I read you I hear the voice and see the mannerisms of a young Alan Alda on Mash. You're my Hawkeye. I don't know why I feel the sudden need to tell people these things.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am flattered beyond words, and definitely NOT worthy.
Hawkeye was/is one of the coolest characters on the toob. I'm not above admitting that I've shamelessly stolen quite a few of his lines.
Now I'm gonna have to think of something extra snarky to say! And I caaaaaan't!
Capt., I'm a big fan of MASH reruns !
ReplyDeleteSee, I nailed it didn't I? ;)
Hi Patti--
ReplyDeleteJust a quick note of reply.
First--welcome. I admire that you're willing to come over here and post your thoughts.
I don't feel I can really contribute here for two reasons:
1. It is the "Raytractors". Your purpose is to disparage and detract form a ministry I support. (that is support - not follow blindly as some would suppose - we all have feet of clay.) So I feel it is hypocritical on my part to come here and engage conversation at length at this site, when one of your purposes is to do just that - draw conversation away from Ray's blog.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The reasons we do what we do is to draw attention to Ray's dishonesty. Ray's arguments against evolution are particularly grating. He makes asinine claims about evolution, and when he's corrected by someone who actually knows what they're talking about, he rarely even acknowledges
the correction, but rather continues making the discredited claim as if he was never corrected in the first place. The last thing society needs right now is someone like Ray Comfort or Pat Robertson dumbing down everybody.
If you dispute our contention that Ray is dishonest, just think about his links policy. He says that nobody is allowed to post links, but he lets his favorite Christian troll Terry Burton post link after link, over our objections.
When Ray says he doesn't let anybody post links he's lying. He doesn't let atheists post links.
And if he's lying about things you can verify just by looking at his blog, what else is he lying to you about?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2...I don't like purposefully putting myself under the language and themes of the conversations - but it is actually much deeper than that - I see the people - and it makes me so sad that the only hope an atheist has is this present world.
I don't question your concern at all. I'm sure you're sincere. But I feel the need to assure you that your fears are completely unfounded. It must be awful believing that an invisible being who lives in the air and watches you at all times is going to do unspeakably cruel things to some of your own loved ones one day.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Speaking of getting used to you all - I am so very glad to see N. T. here. You are just as cute I as imagined :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You can say that again!
And one last thought:
Why can't you all have your Raytractor list your conversations on your terms here - but still come to Ray's blog too? I know that there are many there that frustrate you (some frustrate me too - and I don't mean only atheists), but you all seem a part of the "family" there, and is it so bad to follow Ray's rules on his blog? You can freely vent here - and actually you can even show posts he wouldn't let through and give you more ammunition for your cause!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, speaking for me, his rules are just not reasonable. Ray's playing games.
What we need between our two sides is free dialog, and you can't have a dialog when it takes 18 hours for your comments to appear. Ray sometimes censors comments capriciously even though the comment violated none of his guidelines--he just feels like it so he does it. That's happened to me any number of times. And like I said--the man is just plain lying about his links policy. Just go back to Ray's and count the number of Terry Burton's posts that contain a URL.
Patti,
ReplyDeleteYou know Captain Howdy is right about Ray's arbitrariness. Here's one of my comments that contains no blasphemy or profanity or links but was censored anyway:
Not the Atheist's Nightmare
(By Weemaryanne)
For Ray and his little friend Kirk
The banana's a marvellous work:
"Ain't no better fit
Fer H. Sapiens' mitt!"
Never mind all the research they shirk.
Which reminds me--
ReplyDeleteI'm agog at his anti-doggerel policies, too.
And NMT--
ReplyDeleteCapt., I'm a big fan of MASH reruns !
See, I nailed it didn't I? ;)
You did indeed. I am a Hawkeye wannabe, big-time.
Hey--They don't use too much profanity in Antarctica!
ReplyDeleteCap'n Howdy, does Fuck, it's cold count as profanity in Antarctica?
Oh, no. That's just the weather report.
ReplyDeleteCapt.,
ReplyDeleteWhen I was growing up I watched a lot of nature and science type shows, a ton of MASH and tons of Donahue. I guess that helps explain a lot about me now, come to think of it!
I had the biggest crush on Alan Alda as Hawkeye.
nonmagical thinking said...
ReplyDelete... for Cynthia too. If you see here, tell her I said hello and I hope she is well.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I passed your greeting along - Cynthia was very appreciative.
Blessings and thanks,
Patti
TripMaster Monkey said...
ReplyDelete(snip)
{{{Patti, the original purpose of this blog, as spelled out on the main page, is to provide a forum where interested persons can critique Ray without being subject to his odious rules of censorship. If some of the critiques end up being disparaging and detracting, that's Ray's fault, not ours.}}}
[REPLY]
The comments sections and some entries in the first days of the Raytractors expound and amplify the purpose in the banner somewhat.
As for being Ray's fault - that made me smile - with 4 kids (I bet you didn't know that :) how many times have I heard - "But it was her fault, she made me hit her."?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{{{You needn't worry, as "conversation" isn't something that is possible on Ray's site. When posts are delayed for hours, sometimes days, waiting for Ray to check them against his absurd list of no-nos, anything resembling the flow of "conversation" is impossible.}}}
[REPLY]
Slower, but not impossible. It is moderated - a choice many bloggers make. If you are primarily used to the blogs that are not moderated it does make it feel much more limiting - but since I do read another moderated blog and am myself a moderator for a few homeschool group lists, I am very used to the time lags.
Blessings,
Patti
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lance Christian Johnson said...
ReplyDelete{{{No offense, seriously, but you're suffering from a lack of imagination. My wife and I hope to have a child some day, and the lessons that I pass on to her will far outlive me.
That's just one way that my hope extends beyond the present world.}}}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[REPLY]
I read about that a bit on your beautiful wife's blog. (I loved your wedding picture!) I wish you the very best and hope that you will have your child very soon. You will be incredible parents.
As to the topic at hand - true our children are a legacy - and books, diaries, and our blogs(!) will also probably outlive our mortal lives.
But wouldn't it be even better to actually be with those that you love for eternity in a perfect setting with no sorrow, hurt, or disease?
Blessings,
Patti
Weemaryanne said...
ReplyDelete{{{Patti,
You know Captain Howdy is right about Ray's arbitrariness. Here's one of my comments that contains no blasphemy or profanity or links but was censored anyway:}}}
(snip - just for length - not for content :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[REPLY]
Yes, I have had two of my posts rejected (disappeared? - don't know where they went) - and there was nothing in them violated the rules that I could see. So I don't think it is just the "detractor's" posts that have this happen.
It isn't up to me to defend or try to explain away what happens, and I am not trying to do that (usually if I do try I am never right anyway), but when this happened to me, I just assumed that he is very busy (the blog isn't his main work - but does take up a lot of time) and just errs sometimes.
One of my posts had no link or disguised address - just the name of another site so maybe he didn't want that to go through, maybe he mistook it for an address - I didn't take it personally.
I have also seen several atheist comments go through with links, but after tattling on Rufus for swearing in foreign languages, I decided to mend my informant ways, so just ignored them. Well, not quite ignored them, some I followed to see what they said.
As for the "Terry Factor" I am clueless. I just scroll by.
Blessings,
Patti
muthafucka
ReplyDelete[QUOTE]
ReplyDeletecaptain howdy said...
{{{Hi Patti--
Just a quick note of reply.
First--welcome. I admire that you're willing to come over here and post your thoughts.}}}
[REPLY]
Thanks. I probably won't say too much in other threads - but felt a responsibility to address these comments that directly apply to me. I don't want to be an upsetting influence - really - I handle confrontation fine when I have to - but prefer to not go looking for it. And if Nafa's comments are directed to me - then I am surely an upsetting presence to some (if not most) and don't plan to purposefully antagonize.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[QUOTE]
{{{The reasons we do what we do is to draw attention to Ray's dishonesty. Ray's arguments against evolution are particularly grating. He makes asinine claims about evolution, and when he's corrected by someone who actually knows what they're talking about, he rarely even acknowledges
the correction, but rather continues making the discredited claim as if he was never corrected in the first place. The last thing society needs right now is someone like Ray Comfort or Pat Robertson dumbing down everybody.}}}
[REPLY]
I don't feel especially dumb. If I chose to not believe in evolution that makes me dumb and a liar?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[QUOTE]
If you dispute our contention that Ray is dishonest, just think about his links policy. He says that nobody is allowed to post links, but he lets his favorite Christian troll Terry Burton post link after link, over our objections.
When Ray says he doesn't let anybody post links he's lying. He doesn't let atheists post links.
And if he's lying about things you can verify just by looking at his blog, what else is he lying to you about?}}}
[REPLY]
I already replied to some of this in my reply to Weemaryanne. I also think that just because it looks like A+B=C - it could really equal D, E, or F. There is a formal name for that argument - but I can't remember it, and have to babysit the grandkids in a bit, so dont' have time to look for its actual name, but you would have to come up with a lot more than this to think that Ray is a malicous liar instead of just imperfect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[QUOTE]
{{{I don't question your concern at all. I'm sure you're sincere. But I feel the need to assure you that your fears are completely unfounded. It must be awful believing that an invisible being who lives in the air and watches you at all times is going to do unspeakably cruel things to some of your own loved ones one day. }}}
[REPLY]
Actually it is the reverse of this. I felt the fear and guilt before I repented and accepted Jesus. I find great comfort in knowing that God is the one that can meet all my needs (not wants) and help me through anything that I face.
I was the first one saved in my family. That was very troubling as you say - but now all of my immediate family - parents, siblings, my children, their children etc., have made prefessions of faith. The point is not to let any family members (or anyone else for that matter) go to Hell.
We are not perfect people, and we run the gammet of the American culture - fornicators,mixed marriage, gay, adulterers, alcholics, abusers, drugs, divorces, prison - you name it, somewhere in my family and its extensions, we have dealt with it. But it is the Lord that carries us through and I have never found him to be unfaithful to me - though we are clearly often unfaithful to Him.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[QUOTE]
{{{Well, speaking for me, his rules are just not reasonable. Ray's playing games. (snip)}}}
[REPLY]
Fair enough :)
Blesisngs,
Patti
Patti,
ReplyDeleteMy comment wasn't directed at you or anyone personally. I just wrote the first thing that popped in my filthy atheist head when I read this particular blog.
Actually, Patti, I hope you do post in more threads. I probaly disagree with pretty much 99.9999% on most issues, but that doesn't matter. For what it's worth, I for one like your input even if we disagree.
My apology for the length of this comment is found at the end...
ReplyDeletewee said:
'Sfunny how bleevers never understand that threatening me with eternal torture ain't 'zackly respectful.
This from the model example of respect...
officer doody said:
A lot of lies...
First: street evangelists can't function if someone utters profanity around them
Not true, we simply prefer to have an intelligent conversation, absent of the grunts and sputters of a vocabulary void of thought or creativity...
Second: One of ours posted a comment on benjamin's blog that had profanity in it. But did benjamin just erase the durty werds and let the comment itself stand? No--He erased the whole post.
I'm glad you claimed him as "one of [y]ours... But the rest of your statement is a LIE sir... You all slay me with the way you are unwilling to follow your own rules...
Ray better be accurate when he makes a statement - and if he says something that has been proven wrong, he'd better admit it... Therefore, rather than berate you for being wrong with your statement, I'll simply give you the opportunity to admit that you are wrong...
You are welcome to return to the post in question in order to familiarize yourself with what actually happened.
I understand WHY you would want to remember the situation the way you have, however, your assertion is false... And BELIEVE ME, I do NOT want to get back onto the issue of profanity... I've really said all that I care to about it, I've been misunderstood and misquoted more than I care to anymore...
I'm learning to pick and choose my comments a little more carefully as each new day goes on...
Third: You suggest that evangelists cannot handle people using "salty" language, and that we'd be "out there in droves" if we were serious and could handle it...
The truth is two-fold contrary to your belief... First, the harvest is plentiful, and the laborers are few... and you need to get out from in front of your computer more...
And Silent Dave: We're not threatening you at all... We're warning you... You have the opportunity and the right (which you have chosen to exercise) to ignore it. And don't think we haven't noticed... But as long as you come back, we'll keep on sharing it... Therefore, there's no need to remind us that you don't believe in hell... We already know... We read you the first time, and the second...
You claim that we do not think critically or logically - then here I go - neither do you... See how that feels? You don't care??? Well, neither do I...
Fun little back and forth, huh? Pointless you say? Yep, that's MY point...
Nonmagical... No one is telling you that "because you are an atheist" anything... A Christian carrying out God's Command to seek and save those who are lost is referring to everyone when they proclaim that WE ARE ALL murderers (if we've even hated someone - because God requires purity in our minds and hearts, not just our hands), we are ALL liars... I know that I've never referred to you or any other non-believer as a Nazi - and I have to say that if Ray ever did, well then there you have at least one example of where I am not "brainwashed" as you put it...
When it comes to adultery, once again, the reference is toward the state of your heart... And if you don't understand these things after you claim to have been a Christian at one time, then it is easy to see why you don't believe now... Regardless of what happened to you, or what you've been through - you never believed the Gospel...
Therefore, like the supposed bishop Spong, the name of Christ does not apply to the particular experience you had... Just because your idea or his differs from what the Bible actually says, versus what either of you would like it to believe in order to fit your personal worldview, doesn't mean that you are/were, or he is a Christian.
Please understand that I mean you no disrespect when I write these things... And when it comes to whether or not you "found Jesus" I was having a little fun with words there - but y'all didn't believe Ray when it came to the Banana analogy, why should I expect anything different...
Tripmaster...
You're right, I should've typed that differently - I should've written, "At the risk of getting into the idiotic 'no true Scotsman' argument" Thanks for pointing out my error...
When it comes to your understanding of what the Bible has to say about rape, and slavery or anything else for that matter - I'll rely on a little tactic that many atheists and most evolutionists use... Notice how I didn't say ALL - and I also didn't suggest that atheists and evolutionists are one and the same? Thought it is MIGHTY difficult to tell the difference... Anyway, here's the tactic I'll use...
You do not understand what the Bible is saying - you cannot... It's unfortunate, however, in order to understand a verse or two here or there in the text, one of two (preferrably both) things needs to occur...
1. You would need to read the WHOLE text, with the understanding that all 66 books are related, intertwined and supportive of one another... Books at the beginning (the LEFT side of the Bible) predict or prophesy of things that are going to happen that people should look out for... And MOST of the books toward the end (the RIGHT side) proclaim the truth of everything that the left side spoke of... And the last book describes how everything is going to go down...
And even the most learned Bible scholar can only speculate on the specifics of the events in that book because the wording is pretty intense...
and 2. You would need to be Born Again - your heart regenerated by the atoning work of Christ on the Cross... I know, it's greek to you, but you all seem to know the language, you just don't understand it - and that's... understandable... You might be surprised to read this, but we (Christians) can really understand why...
When it comes to whether people who are "not true Christians" are "counterfeiting their faith in order to slander Christianity" I would have to respond with "yes" and "no." For 12 years I was slandering Christianity with the life I was living - calling myself a Christian and still living like a non-believer... And I thought I was right on - in fact, there was a point at which I would have gotten up in someone's face if they'd have accused me of not being a Christian...
But when I was brought face to face with the Law of God, and the Sacrifice of Christ... When I searched my conscience, and the Bible to see if what I was being told was true - that was when I was truly converted. It's what Ray means when he mentions that we "know" God - He revealed Himself to me... Again, if you're not Born Again, this is going to sound like a bunch of hooey, and I understand that - I'm simply trying to explain it to you so that you understand why I believe the way I do when it comes to those who claim to have been Christians earlier in life...
From age 17 to 29, I professed faith in Jesus, but it wasn't true... I even considered myself to be, at one time, what is commonly referred to as a "Theistic Evolutionist" I've read several of you assert that there are Christians who believe in evolution... It was easy for me to believe because I hadn't read the WHOLE Bible in order to examine ALL of the evidence that God put there...
I'd paid attention in my science classes, even though I wasn't the most attentive or interested student - however, when it came to God's clear explanation of how He created everything, versus the explanations I'd gotten from science books that were always speculative, I chose to go with the document that claimed to be true, rather than the one that admitted that it was a theory...
When it comes to what you believe, you ask if I can "respect" what you believe, and I have to admit that I cannot... Just based upon the very definition of the word, I cannot respect your beliefs anymore than you could mine - we simply don't agree, and therefore could NEVER "respect" one another's beliefs... Now I CAN respect your right to have those beliefs - and I do... And it is my opinion that I make no more of a joke of your beliefs than you do mine...
Though, I will point out if I believe your level of conversation has begun to slide into the trough... Then again, as you have pointed out (repeatedly) and I have agreed, you have every right to shout your particular chides from the rooftops... Unfortunately, that's where the conversation tends to get off-topic, because I lose track of what you're trying to get at because I am forced to sift through all of the 4-letter filth...
@DiscoIgno...
you wrote: I think you completely failed to grasp the point of the post here, even more so on my blog. You claim that the Christians who are disrespectful, lodge death threats, etc, shouldn't be counted as Christians as they aren't true Christians. Fine. Those atheists who are disrespectful, use insults, etc, aren't true atheists. In fact, any atheist who does something bad is not a true atheist. What a model bunch of people we atheists have!
All sarcasm aside, you wrote that, I didn't (now for the sarcasm) and NMT just got done saying that we shouldn't use a broad stroking brush!!!
As for responding to the rest of your post, if I missed your point, I truly apologize, it might be time for me to stop clicking on all these other blogs that take me into so many places, commenting on so many issues, I honestly cannot keep track...
I've read and re-read your comment several times and can only come to this... I'm sorry I didn't respond according to your point - I'll try not to let it happen again...
And Lance...
Sorry, I wanted to keep this all in one post so that you all didn't get more annoyed with me than you normally do...
When it comes to "convoluted explanations" I believe I covered that above... And that's really the best I've got... I have no idea why you don't understand other than that... I would post scripture to support my point, however, I'm hoping to keep your attention a little while longer...
We reference scripture, the way you reference your scientist, or your encyclopedia or whatever atheist or evolutionist you would like to use in order to support your point - we are literally guilty of the same method of making our claims of truth... And ironically, yours says that mine is false, and mine says that yours is false...
Your sources (Dawkins) says that we are not all that bright, or even wicked, though he'd rather not consider that... And our source says that you are fools for denying the existence of God... Can't we call it even? Or, should we go one insulting one another... The interesting point to note here is that my source tells me what to expect, and I don't think that yours does... I'll admit that I'm not familiar enough with Dawkins work to know whether or not he predicts that a Christian will attempt to save your soul, even at the cost of their own personal time and comfort (no pun intended there)...
When you mention that you think I make too much of the profanity - I'm willing to admit that I might have... Though, from my perspective, I wasn't the one making too much of it... I made one comment that got blown a LOT further out of proportion than it needed to... It wasn't until several people posted extremely scathing comments (IMHO) in reply to mine, that I decided to make a topic of it on my own blog...
I'll try to keep my personal opinions to myself... I cannot promise I'll be successful, but I'll try...
And lastly for you... I covered, in detail, above, why we "present [you] with a story..." that you don't believe... No disconnect here - though, perhaps someday you will... And I'm sure you'll continue to persist with YOUR story, hoping that we will one day BELIEVE... Like Shamu, at SeaWorld...
Sorry this was so long in the tooth - but you all had so many things to say - stuff I couldn't simply ignore, some I could, but some I couldn't... And it was time to take the family to the beach...
'Til next time...