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Saturday, August 30, 2008

Ray Says That Atheists Are "Just Pretending"

"Important to (Ray's position) is that atheism must be chosen deliberately and in full conscious knowledge that it is wrong. This first commits (Ray) to a voluntarist position on beliefs: (Ray) must regard beliefs as something a person can choose, reject, and switch as a matter of will just like one changes shirts or picks up a book. The arguments in defense of this position are very weak while the arguments in favor of an involuntarist position are very strong; this creates significant weakness in (Ray's) position.

"(Ray) is also committed to thinking that atheists aren't really atheists. Atheism is the lack of belief in gods, but if atheism is a sin then people who call themselves atheists must know that the Christian god really does exist just as (Ray's particular brand of) Christianity describes it; therefore they can't really be atheists. (Ray is) thus claiming that (he) know(s) atheists better than they know themselves and/or that atheists are lying to themselves about what they really believe.

"Alleged evidence for all this doesn't come from atheists' actual behavior or statements, but from (Ray's) own ideology — which means that (...) (his) own ideology is offered as "evidence" that critics of (his) ideology are wrong. Rather than seriously listen to atheists and consider what they have to say, (Ray is) simply looking backwards to (his) own ideology and coming up with 'answers' that do nothing more than force other human beings to fit into theological preconceptions. In effect, atheists are treated less like individual human beings and more like object lessons for a theology class." --Austin Cline (emphasis added)

To the above I would only add that if voluntarism is correct, then a strong case can be made that Ray is not really a Christian. More on this later.


  1. I love Austin Cline's blog. This is cool - thanks, Silentdave.

    Does anyone want to know how much of Ray's Blog is devoted to actual (if incompetent) apologetics, as opposed to science/atheist-bashing? If so, speak up 'cause I've got numbers.

  2. Go, on - post the numbers ... :-)


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