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Friday, August 29, 2008

Something for the weekend....

Everyone's favorite fundie has outdone himself yet again.

In the "This is What You Are Saying" post on Ray's increasingly painful to read blog; counselor/pilot/spy/war-hero/schizophrenic Terry Burton (who has previously referred to himself as 'Science Degree Guy') said:

Blogger keywesthaven1@msn.com (Terry) said...

@ Andrew IRT: Get a CLUE!

you said "seriously, if you're really interested in learning about physics and biology, there are a ton of excellent resources available"

FYI, I have a degree in science. The THEORY of evolution has nothing to do with physics and biology. In fact, both of these sciences show that our bodies and the world around us is very complex and intricate!

evolution is nothing more than a
bad 'guess' about it. It is NOT a science as nothing has been proven by 'hard evidence'.

Let me know if you find that 'missing link' as no one has found it for thousands of years!

God Bless! Hope you wake up and smell the reality of GOD.

August 29, 2008 6:10 AM

Now I'm no skeptic (ahem), but if Terry Burton has a genuine science degree from a real university then I will personally eat my own head. It would be futile to call him on it though - as we can see from Dimensio's continued efforts to get him to back up his lies about Darwin's Bogus Journey on the Beagle.

In other news; blogger 'andy' found this beautiful piece of scripture that blows a species-sized hole in the whole creationist 'kind' thing:

Blogger Andy said...

You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle;...

How can the Bible even talk about "two kinds" of cattle when Ray assures us there's only "Cow" species (kind)?

you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed,

Again, Ray tells us "Tree" is a single species so I'd have to assume "Plant" is also a single species.

Are you sure you're quoting the right bible here? I think you must have one of those idolatry bibles that get everything wrong.

August 28, 2008 8:23 PM

Nice work!

Everyone have a great weekend, I'm off to abort some single-celled humans for fun and, possibly, get some fishing done if I can squeeze in the time.




  1. I actually came here to see if anyone knew what science degree Terry had.

    I'm hoping is a degree in particle physics or quantum mechanics.

  2. Hi Kaitlyn-

    I was going to paste something stupid Terri wrote, and respond to it, but then I saw your post & just wanted to say something to you.

    First, I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts.

    Now, you question if you have a soul.

    I believe that it was Spinoza who posited that there is no duality. The mind and soul are one.

    If that's the case, you absolutely have a mind and a soul. It is evidenced in your writing. It is evidenced in your questioning. It shows it's beauty in your conscience and sentience.

    Will it last forever? I haven't seen any evidence, or even good conjecture that leads me to believe that it will, at least in any form that it would be recognizable as such.

    But I do see validity in the law of conservation of matter. And, as Einstein showed, matter is energy, and energy is matter. The energy (as electrical waves) that our brains produce can't just cease to exist.

    Wouldn't you imagine that it either remains as energy waves or perhaps changes wavelengths, or with sufficient additional energy it changes to matter?

    What are your thoughts on this?

    PS- Terri has never shown any significant knowledge of physics whatsoever. My guess is that if does have a degree in science it is engineering, maybe electrical or mechanical.

  3. It's pretty obvious what science degree Terry has.

    A BS in pseudoscience from Liberty University.

  4. Engineering isn't a science degree - it's applied science and there really is a big difference.

  5. Benjamin Franklin,

    Thanks for answering my question about souls.

    I believe that it was Spinoza who posited that there is no duality. The mind and soul are one.

    If that is the case, many animals have souls, and even a machine could have a soul. If we posit that the mind and the soul are interchangeable, then ensoulment begins at the birth of first thought.

    However, this is antithetical to the evangelical Christian message. While I agree with all the conclusions you have gathered, the concept of mind-soul duality is a red herring.

    My goal is to create a solution to bridge my feelings with the Evangelical Christian message with the assumption that both are true.

    In other words, if Ray is correct, how can we atheists not see what he sees?

    The logical solution is to assume Ray believes in something that is not factually verifiable or true to an objective observer. Therefore, he's almost certainly wrong.

    However, if we make the assumption that Ray does indeed feel God's presence and God does exist, then a solution is required to explain why I and many others lack Ray's intuitive understanding of God.

    If one posits a more Christian definition of a soul as a connection to God, then a lack of a soul would explain why atheists lack a belief in an almighty.

    Similarly, the more I try to counter this notion, the more I realize this solution bridges the gap between atheism and evangelical Christianity without resorting to psychological absurdities such as the idea that atheists do believe in God but love sin too much to acknowledge their faith.

    However, this explanation does not bridge the gap between atheism and religions other than Christianity which is why I want a well-read Christian to evaluate my ideas.

    However, back to your thoughts:

    Wouldn't you imagine that it either remains as energy waves or perhaps changes wavelengths, or with sufficient additional energy it changes to matter?

    I doubt we have an eternal soul even when you consider all matter and energy is eternal. While the energy that makes up our thoughts will never be destroyed, the thoughts themselves are fleeting and soon gone.

    The universe is in a constant state of entropy, and since the very concept of individuality is in opposition to uniformity, I cannot believe that any resemblance of our self-conscienceless will remain after death.

    Thanks for replying to my questions, Benjamin. I always enjoy conversing with someone who expresses themselves as well as you do. :)

  6. Hi Kaitlyn

    I admire your ability to stay pleasant and focused at Ray's nuthouse - I wish I had your demeanor. You sure you're an atheist?...you don't seem bitter and cynical enough ;)

    I also admire that you are willing to question your own views, something we skeptics should always be opened to do.

    "If one posits a more Christian definition of a soul as a connection to God, then a lack of a soul would explain why atheists lack a belief in an almighty."

    This is an interesting thought. I guess the biggest probelm I have with it is the connection people have with a god usally comes after some kind of programming. Either they were raised to belief in X religion or they were converted at some point in their life. I would expect that if the soul were actually an intrinsic property that some people have, then they should be able to connect with god prior to and without any previous outside exposure to religous teaching.

    Also, if there really was this vehicle which some humans possessed that allowed for a god conection, I think ideas about who god is, what he wants, morals etc...would be much more consistant and homogenous throughout time, cultures, individuals, etc...

    just my thoughts.

  7. Nafa,
    I agree with you completely. I might also argue that theism alone is not the result of programming given that there may be an innate quality within the human condition which guides many toward spirituality and/or God(s). However, religion is certainly a result of our environment.

    So while my idea may bridge the gap between atheism and evangelical Christianity, I fall short in attempting to explain the variety of religious beliefs and interpretations of god(s) unless we assume all religious beliefs are an extension of the ethereal nature of souls communing with the supernatural for which we can neither rationalize nor interpret with any objective veracity.

    Of course, I must fight against Occam's razor if I were to take such a position with any sort of conviction. :P

  8. Hi Kaitlyn et al,

    I've been lurking for awhile both here and at Ray's blog. This one is much more enjoyable, though I do get quite a lot of laughs out of Ray and his ilk.

    Kaitlyn, You are about the most patient person I have ever met. You deserve a medal for what you put up with. You are expressing honest questions and feelings over at Ray's site and all you get in return is promises of damnation and calls to "repent!".

    I personally don't think you'll find the answers you're looking for over there, but do keep trying if it helps you in any way.

    Keep fighting the good fight.


    Psalm 14:1

    You guys know the rest!

  9. Hey Kaitlyn,

    I don't know if you saw Vera's reply to your statement about living with your partner but not having sex?

    Well, it made me laugh, so here it is:

    verandoug said...

    Kaitlyn said...
    "On a side note, I lived with my boyfriend for a while outside of marriage, but we never had sex. Is that still fornication? I thought fornication was sex outside of marriage, and you don't need to live with your partner for that to happen.

    Are you using a different definition of fornication than what I would use?"

    Vera replies...
    "A person having sex outside of marriage practiced what the Greeks called pornea. Paul made sure that he included homosexuality and lesbianism in helping people understand what offended God. Sex is a great thing. God created it. He simply wanted it kept within marriage.

    So with all that in mind, how many people in your circle of friends believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that you and your boyfriend were not fornicating at that time? Is there any doubt, iow? How shocked would they have been had you turned up pregnant, for example? Probably not at all because they held in the back of their minds that this could very well be happening. All that to say that one problem with this scenario is the little ones associated with you that are on the outside looking in. Are they aware of all the details? Probably not. What this does is give the appearance of evil and Paul said not to do that either. I would say that living together with someone would certainly fall under that category.

    Now with all that said, there are certainly emergencies in life such as disasters where we are forced into coed situations. We don't have to have sex in that situation either. The thing about being led of the Holy Spirit is that we seem to know what to do when the situation arises, which is how we walk out the righteousness of the Law without having a Law.


    August 26, 2008 4:36 PM

    So, yes, you're a dirty fornicator for not telling all your friends that you weren't having sex. Now go watch HBKS and REPENT before it's too late!

    And that, my friends, is Verafied Dung



  10. @ExPatMatt

    Haha, I missed Verandoug's reply.

    On the one hand, he makes a deep statement about the relativity of our perceptions. In other words, fact is a function of interpretation.

    On the other hand, he thinks that God hates co-ed living relationships even though God is supposedly all-knowing and immune to the limitation of human ignorance.

    Similarly, after expressing and understanding of human fallacies, he goes on to quote Paul from the Bible to support his views.

    He certainly has an interesting perspective.

    BTW: Thanks Liz. That means a lot to me.

  11. Hey Kaitlyn,

    I wouldn't call Ray a well-read Christian. What you should get is a theology student and a philosopher.

    A good place to go might be www.friendlyatheist.com forums, where some ridiculously intelligent, tolerant, and well-versed theists and a particular sub-forum set up specifically for questions like yours.

    Hemant's site is there specifically to bridge the social gap between the religious and the non, so you may find better answers over there.

  12. "I might also argue that theism alone is not the result of programming given that there may be an innate quality within the human condition which guides many toward spirituality and/or God(s)."


    That's actually a really good point. I remeber reading an article about the remains of 'whaterever'-lithic era peoples being found which had been cerimoniusly buried along with 'personal items'. So the conclusion is that they had some sort of belief of an afterlife and some kind of god-figure or spritual belief.

    So you may be right, that a yearing or idea of something 'more' is innate to our minds.

    That begs the obvious question, why?

    1 possibility is that at least some of us were endowed with a real soul which allows us to communicate or at least yearn for a god.

    But we can, and of course people have, come up with natural explanations for that god desire.

    A friend of mine suggested it might be something we adapted (probaly more culturally than biologically)which keeps us from going crazy.

    Sometimes humans can be too smart. We are almost too aware of reality. And I imagine for early man this was quite stressful. They were probaly asking themselves the same questions we ask today, but had no scientific insight to cope with the questions.

    What I mean is, and you may have experienced this too, there has been times in my life that I've pondered really deep questions and it almost made my head hurt because some things I just couldn't wrap my mind around.

    Now imagine prehistoric man doing this same thing, without the benefit of thousands of years of knowledge provided by philosphers, scientists, etc...to help him out. It very well may have driven some insane!

    So, the supernatural provides easy and satifying answers, as long as you don't probe to much deeper.

    Well, thats just one possibility, I'm sure you can think of others.


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