As I was watching a video exchange yesterday between DonExodus2 (IMHO, one of the top Evolution Gurus on YouTube) and TheAmazingAthiest (IMHO, an immature moron); I began to ruminate about some of the posts I've read here in the last couple of days. The posts I'm thinking about deal with the accusation that atheists (and agnostics, for I consider myself the latter) want to de-convert Christians or those of other religious beliefs. I would argue that while there are some who do, many do not care. In fact, I believe that there are many who, while they may consider themselves to be atheist, would fight for your individual right to be a Christian.
Now let me qualify that statement (and this is definitely a USA-centric argument, though no jingoism is intended). In the USA, our Bill of Rights grants us the ability to practice our religious beliefs (or the lack there of) freely and without constraint excepting those practices that breach social mores and other laws. In that regard I hold the Amendments highly, with the viewpoint that, while I may not agree with you, I will fight for your ability to hold those views. I have no desire to de-convert anyone, while I won't stop asking questions to get people to think about their beliefs; if you can demonstrate that you are not just mindlessly following an idea and that you have thought critically about those beliefs, I will support you in your ability to believe what you will.
Now I'm not saying that agnostics, ignostics, and atheists should just sit still while the religious run roughshod over us. I'm saying that I expect, as an individual to be able to express an intelligent, and well thought out point of view without scorn or ridicule, and I feel people should be able to expect the same from me. Now dumb statements of ANY sort always deserve ridicule :).
Now there is a big caveat with this though. THIS feeling only applies to personal beliefs and expressing your own views. This DOES NOT in any way include pushing your beliefs views on others. The moment that happens, you lose my respect. I'm not going to stop driving because the Amish don't, I wont give up my status as a second-hand vegetarian (I only eat things that eat grasses and vegetables) just because you "Earthlings" and it changed your life, and I definitely won't throw out perfectly sound scientific theory just because it conflicts with your 4,000 year old, Reader's Digest compilation of "Myths of the World." I don't want to de-convert you, I just want you to think critically. And the reason to remove "In God we Trust" is not to impose on your beliefs, but to remove the imposition from everyone else's.
P.S. Sorry if this rambles, I've been up for 22 hours now and I'm going to bed, but I wanted to put this up while the thought was still semi-fresh.
P.P.S. Dumb not allowing indented paragraphs...(i.e. edited for readability)
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First of all, Mac, great post. There's no need to apologize for its length, and I assure you, at no time were you "rambling".
ReplyDeleteSecond, you state that "I don't want to de-convert you, I just want you to think critically.". While this is certainly a noble aim, I'm not sure how feasible it is in practice. While theists certainly can think critically on some topics, they commonly exhibit a phenomenon known as "compartmentalization", in which they function more or less normally in life, and can still retain their beliefs.
Why doesn't a theist ask their deity to change their flat tire, or fix their computer? Because subconsciously, they know full well that such a course of action will fail. Thus, to preserve the compartmentalization in their minds that allows them to simultaneously believe in completely irrational things and function in the real world, they will reject the alternative completely, usually with the excuse that it is disrespectful to God to call on Him for such a minor problem.
Instead of asking that theists think critically about all things, (which would "de-convert" them in short order), you would be better off to ask them to practice their compartmentalization rigorously enough to keep their irrationality where it belongs: in their churches, and out of our legislatures and schools.
Third, regarding them pushing their beliefs on others, one of the main tenets of evangelical Christianity is the "evangelism" part...described by the American Heritage Dictionary as: "zealous preaching and dissemination of the gospel, as through missionary work.". In other words, if they aren't in your face, they're doing it wrong, and their sky daddy will be upset with them. In fact, I've heard some evangelical pastors go so far as to say that your worth in Heaven will be measured by how many of the lost you have brought into the flock. With this sort of setup, I fear that expecting them to kindly keep their beliefs to themselves is unrealistic.
Lastly, I just want to give my own take on "de-converting", or, as I like to refer to it, "deprogramming". My personal experience is that the typical theist is an otherwise rational person who has had a very long time to perfect the method of holding irrational beliefs in their head without going insane. In many cases, they have spent their entire lifetime learning how to route the rational thoughts around the little nugget of faith in their brains, and given that level of self-deception, your one afternoon of well-reasoned arguments is really not going to make that much of an impression. Those who you do manage to get through to in any way will most likely react with anger, since the light of reason shining directly upon their superstitions is painful.
In short, it's a fairly thankless task, one that will most likely cost you friends and acquaintances, while, paradoxically enough, strengthening their beliefs, since they either believe they've "refuted" your arguments, or they've experienced doubt, and come out the other side.
When considering this subject, I'm reminded of Morpheus in The Matrix, when he said, "You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."
tripmaster monkey said it beautifully.
ReplyDeleteit sounds great that you don't want to convert people, but just want them to think critically and leave everyone else alone.
but isn't critical thinking what led you to become an atheist and to deny the validity of the bible or a religious person's claims? if a religious person thinks critically, wouldn't you agree that would ultimately lead them to doubt their religious beliefs? so how is that different from wanting them to stop believing or "de-convert"?
i also agree with what he said that evangelicalism and "pushiness" is really one of the central themes in the bible. they genuinely think we are going to burn forever in hell, and believe that they will be rewarded in heaven for witnessing to the lost. a lot of them would not hesitate to take away other peoples' freedoms if it meant following their religious rules.
what you said sounds really tolerant and nice and all, but it doesn't seem realistic to me.
Well stated, and for the record, I watched that Youtube thing as well. I was definitely siding with the Christian over the atheist on that one. AA is just a loudmouth doofus who's right twice a day just like a broken clock is.
ReplyDeleteI subscribe to DonExodus2's video account, so I too watched Don's and AA's exchange.
ReplyDeleteDonExodus2 is probably THE YouTube goto guy for all things evolution. Beginning from his first video on the subject, Don takes you step by step through the process and explains facets of the theory of natural selection. I didn't even know existed. I would recommend his videos to anyone looking to know more about evolution.
Don recently posted a couple of videos on why he believes is god. These were to answer requests from atheists and theists alike about how a professed Christian holds the views he does regarding atheism.
The Amazing Atheist, upon seeing these videos, canceled HIS subscription to Don's account and posted his rant.
I've seen some of the Amazing Atheist's videos before and this latest one reminds me why I choose not to subscribe to his videos (and, for that matter, even view them). If I wanted someone to yell at me and call me names, I'd go to church.
AA, it is my hope too that they would think more critically, but also that they would see human beings as more than objects of sin. When you have a book that claims absolute authority and it condones the type of behaviors that the bible does, it is easy to forget that the people you are damning are not just objects that you can say horrible things to because your book says it's ok, but that they are individuals with individual circumstances and personalities.
ReplyDeleteThat's why a lot of moderate Christians don't bother me much. We get along fine and when I have conversations with them they see that modern times call for a different approach to people and circumstances than ancient times did.
Mike, I have been watching DonE's videos for a while and didn't know he was a theist.
ReplyDeleteI went over and watched the 2 videos where he talks about why he believes in a god because he seems to me to be an intelligent person and I wanted to see if he had anything to say that would convince me. He didn't, but he did bring up a couple of good points like how quote mining makes you look like and idiot and that literalism is ridiculous.
I don't get into the debates back and forth on YouTube so I don't know anything about the creationist people there or the Amazing Atheist.
nonmagical thinking said...
ReplyDeleteMike, I have been watching DonE's videos for a while and didn't know he was a theist.
I went over and watched the 2 videos where he talks about why he believes in a god because he seems to me to be an intelligent person and I wanted to see if he had anything to say that would convince me. He didn't, but he did bring up a couple of good points like how quote mining makes you look like and idiot and that literalism is ridiculous.
I don't get into the debates back and forth on YouTube so I don't know anything about the creationist people there or the Amazing Atheist. ---
I don't normally get into debates on YouTube (or anywhere online,really. I'm just not equipped.), either. But site's like Don's, this site and even Ray Comfort's site let me see opposing viewpoints (in the form of comments) and the arguments for those viewpoints. I believe it's made me more of a critical thinker.
I think that the fact that you didn't realize Don was a theist speaks volumes about his religious stance. If someone HAS to be religious, this is certainly what I wish was the norm.
The Amazing Atheist should only be viewed to see how NOT to carry oneself as an atheist. Halfway through his rant against Don, he actually flies off topic and condemns other atheists for being too weak on the religious.
Ok, now that I'm awake again...
ReplyDeleteYes critical thinking IS what lead me to be an agnostic, but, there are many people that I know that while doing the same do hold on to a moderate christian viewpoint. Ken Miller is one that I would point to. As for evangelizing, there are multiple ways that you can do that, that aren't in your face aggression. The recent letter from "Rose" on Ray's site pointed to such a way. Having rational, discussions and being a caring individual CAN be considered evangelizing for moderates.
Mike,
ReplyDeleteIn part 2 of Don's video on why he believes in a god he asks that you pause and go watch Amazing Atheist's response video so I tried to. I got about 45 seconds into it and couldn't take it anymore. I think he's an attention whore. There is nothing that I heard him say in that brief time period that he couldn't have said without screaming.
I think Amazing lives in Patrick Greene's basement. Those two would get along well.
ReplyDeleteIf any of the ACA are reading this, could you guys hook them two up? Just for the 'lulz'.