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Sunday, August 3, 2008

Reply to Jean Gasho-Musuka

In a comment to my recent post about Ray being so threatened by atheists that he denies our very existence, Jean Gasho-Musuka wrote:

Think its the other way round, why would you go as far to create a blog about Ray. Is it not you threatened by Ray. Just asking?


Well I, personally, did not create this blog -- I came along a few weeks or so after its inception. But never mind that.

Ray Comfort is much like the Christian Coalition and the "Intelligent Design" movement, in that any threat he may pose to us is in the socio-political realm. He poses absolutely no threat to us in the intellectual realm. All of his "arguments" for God's existence fail, and in fact, as you can probably ascertain from the fact that I put "arguments" in quote marks, most of them aren't even arguments at all. They're bald assertions.

As for why I choose to participate in this blog (I cannot speak for the motives of its creator), there are three reasons.

First, Ray Comfort does pose a threat of sorts in the socio-political realm. That threat is quite severe, I'm afraid -- yet not so severe that we feel compelled to deny Ray Comfort's very existence. Were we to do something that stupid, we'd be Raybots, not Raytractors.

Second, it's good mental exercise for me. You know how doctors recommend you get fifteen minutes of exercise three times a week, even if you're perfectly healthy, just to keep your body in good shape? My disassembling of Ray Comfort's arguments is the mental equivalent of that. It's keeping my analytic mind in shape for when a real challenge comes along.

And third, it's cathartic. Because let's face it, Ray Comfort is an asshole.

54 comments:

  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  2. that was a good distinction of threats.

    a person can be very threatening because of the sway they hold with the masses, and still be an intellectual midget.

    i don't think ray's mind will ever change, but the more feasible goal is to hope that less people will buy into what he's selling.

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  3. So Ray does pose some sort of threat to atheists as you have admitted. intersting!

    What threat does he pose in the 'socio-political realm' which is quite 'serious and severe'?

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  4. Jean,

    Ray poses a 'socio-political' threat in the same way that any fundamentalist theist does. You actively use your socio-political influence to push your beliefs on others -ie intelligent design in the classroom, prayer in schools, etc.

    And in the case of Comfort, he has legions of gullible followers who would very willing listen and obey if Ray asked them to vote one way or another on a particular issue.

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  5. The major threat that Ray and others like him pose is that they are trying to violate, or circumvent, the First Amendment to the Constitution by putting religion into public schools and governments. Creationism, in its contemporary guise as "Intelligent Design," wants to institutionalize theism in public schools; the courts have repeatedly ruled that this is unconstitutional.

    A secondary, but almost as serious, threat that Ray and others like him pose is to knowledge itself. Scientific fields such as evolution, which Ray and his ilk dislike for no other reason than that it contradicts a literal reading of their chosen "holy" scripture, are fundamental to a correct understanding of how the world works. To deny them is to deny progress itself.

    For example: Have you ever taken antibiotics? Those were developed directly as a result of our knowledge of evolution, because the bacteria evolved to survive in the human body in response to the earlier antibiotics such as penicillin, and so we had to change the drugs in response. Imagine if we didn't have any knowledge of evolution, however, because religious influences had caused too many people to not take it seriously. The world would then be ravaged with infection; mortality rates would skyrocket.

    That's a rather simplistic example, but hopefully it makes my point. What Ray and the Raybots are doing is flat-out bad for the human race.

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  6. Well, I have to say you push your beliefs on others too. Imagine the damage you cause when you impose your beliefs on innocent little children and tell them that there is no God.
    The very thing you accuse Christians of doing is the very thing you do. Why is it wrong to teach intelligent design or for children to pray in schools and why is it right to teach evolution in schools? Ray or any christian is a threat to atheists because of the truths of Christianity. You see I do not think atheists pose a threat to anyone or anything, even a 5 year old child can reason that. Why are you so afraid of us pushing our beliefs on others- are you scared that they may be converted and believe in the one true God of the bible. Why does that concern you?

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  7. Dave,
    where are you at in minnesota?

    Jean,
    simply put, Ray is a fundamentalist. The fact the he happens to be Christian is meaningless; there are many free thinking Chrsitians in the world.

    Rays fundi attitude is a threat to free thinking. If he had it his way, we wouldn't have science that explored ideas such as evolution or the theory of everything (including quantum mechanics, M-theory so on), physics is mute in his world. Because of course in his world view he has all the answers.

    it is because of the vary science that he pushes away that he sits in a nice cushy airconditioned home, drives an automobile, and has has internet access to push his fundi idealism. He participates in the vary thing he shunes.

    It might seem as though I'm sliding down a slippery slope, but the fact remains that he does in fact reject science. I'd be curious to know what he actualy believes science is good for.

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  8. Jean said:

    "Well, I have to say you push your beliefs on others too. Imagine the damage you cause when you impose your beliefs on innocent little children and tell them that there is no God."

    I push my beliefs on no one. I merely discuss them with people who want to discuss them. I do not vote for things that violate the governing laws of my country(ie religion in a science classroom) simply because I believe in one thing or another.

    My children are free to learn about all religions - and then make their own educated choices regarding them. They will learn about all major religions and systems of beliefs as well as my and my husbands reasons for rejecting them. That is intellectual honesty and a courage of convictions. You, on the other hand are likely forcing christianity on your children without allowing them any other choice.

    "The very thing you accuse Christians of doing is the very thing you do."

    Prove it.

    "Why is it wrong to teach intelligent design or for children to pray in schools and why is it right to teach evolution in schools?"

    Evolution is a scientific theory that has been proven in a million ways a million times. It is the very basis of all modern biology. One cannot learn, understand or practice biology or it's applications - like medical science(y'know, Doctors?) without a proper understanding of the theory of evolution.

    Evolution is not a belief system. Christianity is.

    What you are proposing here is discrimination. You'd like the schools in your area to force all of the children who attend them to pray to YOUR god and ignore the fact that many many people either worship different gods or no gods at all. Why should your beliefs based on a silly ancient book of fairy tales hold and precedent over anyone elses silly beliefs based on fairy tales? Muslims, Jews, Sheikhs, Hindus - they all believe just as strongly as you do, and they all think that you are foolish for believing what you do.

    That is why schools are SECULAR. You may impose your religious dogma on your children at home - the school is not the place for religion. Unless you agree that everyone's religion gets equal time - it's only fair.

    "Ray or any christian is a threat to atheists because of the truths of Christianity."

    There is no truth to christianity. No more than you believe that there is truth to Islam or Judaism.

    I am not afraid of christians - I pity them in their self-imposed delusions.

    "You see I do not think atheists pose a threat to anyone or anything, even a 5 year old child can reason that."

    Did you know that the more education a person has, the more likely it is that they will be an atheist? How do you explain this?

    "Why are you so afraid of us pushing our beliefs on others- are you scared that they may be converted and believe in the one true God of the bible."

    More and more people de-convert every day. Christianity is no where close to being the largest or most popular religion in the world. Many people de-convert in their early teens or late childhood years. Even a 12 year old can see through the fairy tales of your bible.

    "Why does that concern you?"

    People like you who would vote for something unconstitutional simply because your religion tells you to scare me. People like you who would force your dogma on my children in schools scare me. You want to take away peoples right to choose. Is that because you know your religion is so ludicrous that unless you force people to believe that they won't?

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  9. So now Ray's attitude is a threat to free thinking? Come on listen to yourselves. This is becoming more rediculous than I thought. And there I was thinking I was dealing with intellectuals.... I guess my point is proven after all!

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  10. "I guess my point is proven after all!"

    You never had a point. But now that you would be forced to actually think about and defend your posistion, you'd sooner bow out not-so-gracefully and declare yourself the winner.

    Coward.

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  11. Jean,
    I don't reject the existance of God, I'm not an atheist.

    Ray on the otherhand rejects the "IDEAS" of science. Which is fine, we shouldn't accept science dogmatically. But Ray seems to reject the enterprise and pursuit entirely; and I guess that's my issue.

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  12. Jean,

    so why do you care about what we think?

    you seem to be giving our opinions a lot of thought

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  13. Well, I have to say you push your beliefs on others too. Imagine the damage you cause when you impose your beliefs on innocent little children and tell them that there is no God.
    The very thing you accuse Christians of doing is the very thing you do.


    Seen many atheist evangelists on street corners, have you? Do you imagine that there are atheist meeting centers every other block in this country, while you'd be lucky to find one church in a given major city? Are we innundating the airwaves with atheist propaganda wall to wall on Sundays? Do we have our own cable channels, while the Christians are lucky to grab time on public access cable?

    As for "damaging" children by telling them there is no God, it is never to a person's ultimate detriment to learn the truth.

    Why is it wrong to teach intelligent design or for children to pray in schools and why is it right to teach evolution in schools?

    It is wrong to teach "intelligent design" in schools because "intelligent design" is false, unscientific, and a religious ideology which makes it unconstitutional to teach in schools.

    It is not wrong for children to pray in schools -- they have that right. It is wrong, however, for teachers and/or staff of schools to sanction or organize any such prayer. The reason again has to do with the Constitution.

    It is right to teach evolution because evolution is a major scientific field, lack of knowledge about which could seriously hamper a child's future science education.

    Ray or any christian is a threat to atheists because of the truths of Christianity.

    No, they're a threat to all of humanity, for the reasons I've already given. Even if Christianity were true, which happens to not be the case, those reasons would still stand.

    You see I do not think atheists pose a threat to anyone or anything, even a 5 year old child can reason that.

    That seems inconsistent with what you said above.

    Why are you so afraid of us pushing our beliefs on others- are you scared that they may be converted and believe in the one true God of the bible. Why does that concern you?

    Insofar as it concerns me it all, it does so because God does not exist. Plain and simple.

    So now Ray's attitude is a threat to free thinking? Come on listen to yourselves. This is becoming more rediculous than I thought. And there I was thinking I was dealing with intellectuals.... I guess my point is proven after all!

    Do you have anything substantive to say about Andrew's point, or are you going to be like Ray and just make fun of us instead of making any actual argument?

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  14. jean said:

    What threat does he pose in the 'socio-political realm' which is quite 'serious and severe'?

    I say:

    Ray and the whole fundamentalist movement have had an inordinate amount of influence on our politics and policy for the last seven years. It's been undeniably serious, severe, dangerous and downright deadly.

    I would start with the fact that support for Bush and Republicans solely on one issue, abortion, or simply because they're "godly" has led to an illegal, immoral war, torture, suspension of habias corpus, warrentless wiretaps, corruption of science by political hacks, corruption of the Justice Dept. by legal hacks from the fourth rate Liberty law school, etc.

    More direct policy influence in cutting off funds for womens health care and family planning here and abroad if abortion is mentioned. Abstinence only sex ed despite zero effectiveness. It's been shown there's spikes in std's where it's "taught".

    Fundie xtians have directly or indirectly caused all sorts of damage. Do I hold Ray personally responsible? No, but he's part of the problem and needs to be confronted when he spouts bullshit.

    I personally fight my battles by being politically active. I caucus, I canvas for candidates, I contribute money, I make calls, I've even attended school board meetings ( talk about sacrifice, gawd). There's still something amusing about Ray's rigid ignorance. I usually don't have anything to contribute but wise crackery so that's what I do.

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  15. It is wrong to teach evolution in schools because it is not a fact but a theory.

    and Maragon, this is not about winning, its about the ability to reason and use common sense.

    And Milo - I do actually care so much about what you think, you are right about that. The reason is because your thinking is so sad and wrong. You are betting with your own souls and will spend eternity in Hell. You see, if I was wrong about God, I have nothing to lose but if you are wrong you have everythin to lose. That is why I am giving a lot of thoughts into what you are saying. Its tragic.
    Silent Dave, why would I make fun of people like you, I actually feel sorry for people like you because you are so blind. The truth of the matter is atheists are wrong and Christians are right. This is not something I am afraid to say even though I know I will be attacked for saying this. I am an evangelist myself and i even go door to door sharing the gospel of Jesus. That is what a true Christian will do. And we hear of testimonies of atheists who have been converted to Christianity. Even though you hate God you cannot stop Him. That is why children should be tought the Word Of God, especially children of atheists and other false religions.

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  16. Jean,
    you said:
    "You see, if I was wrong about God, I have nothing to lose but if you are wrong you have everythin to lose."

    Way to go with Pascal's Wager.


    Let me ask you this Jean,
    would it be ok to teach Christianity in schools?

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  17. Craig abortion is an inhuman babaric evil act of mass murder that is forbiden by God. Any woman who kills her unborn baby is actually a murderer. For that reason no true Christian should ever vote for anyone who is pro-abortion. This is why I have to say I do not support Barack Obama and will do my best to encourage others not to vote for him. Abortion should never be an option for any woman, it is evil.

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  18. Yes Andrew
    Christianity should be tought in Schools because it is the only true religion. There is only one God and every child should be tought about their Maker.

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  19. Jean,
    so let me ask you this then. You stated that evolution should not be taught in schools because it was just a theory.

    If Christianity should be taught in schools, and you believe it is not a theory; then what proof do you have to support the existance of the Christian God?

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  20. And Jean - I do actually care so much about what you think, you are right about that. The reason is because your thinking is so sad and wrong. You are betting with your own souls and will spend eternity in Hell. You see, if I was wrong about Allah, I have nothing to lose but if you are wrong you have everythin to lose. That is why I am giving a lot of thoughts into what you are saying. Its tragic.

    Sounds stupid, doesn't it? But you have as much to lose as I do if you're wrong. If Allah is the true God you are going to burn in hell. Maybe you should hedge your bets and become a Moslem-Jew-Hindu-Mormon-Catholic-Jehovah's Witness.

    By the way, you know that argument is called Pascal's Wager. FYI- it's not very effective.

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  21. jean said:
    It is wrong to teach evolution in schools because it is not a fact but a theory.

    Actually, evolution is a fact. Check out the following: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

    I would be interested to here what you actually believe the definition of evolution to be. While your at it, let me know what your definition of theory is.

    Mike

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  22. jean,

    Would you suggest life without parole or the death penalty for women who've had abortions.

    The strategy of denying funding for contraception, pre-natal care and education to women for just mentioning abortion, guarantees more abortions.

    I guess it's easy to ignore several hundred thousand dead Iraqis, 4 million displaced. Many of whom are forced into prostitution to keep from starving or being killed. It's easy when your "godly" leader is dropping freedom on them from 30,000 feet in the form of 5,000 lb. bunker busters, cluster bombs and incendiary bombs that suck up all the available oxygen in it's proximity and collapse the lungs of anyone who isn't incinerated. It's easy because we're rightous in our destruction. Because of 9/11, even though the ones responsible for that evil walk free.
    Before you call me a troop hater I place the blame squarely on our civilian leadership put there by people like you.

    I'm getting agitated and the wife just made guacamole. I'm out.

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  23. silent dave,

    "Insofar as it concerns me it all, it does so because God does not exist. Plain and simple."

    Prove it.

    maragon,

    "Christianity is no where close to being the largest or most popular religion in the world."

    Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leads unto life, and few are they that find it.

    jean,

    "Christianity should be tought in Schools because it is the only true religion."

    I agree. :)

    In Christian Love,
    Brittany

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  24. "It is wrong to teach evolution in schools because it is not a fact but a theory."

    You oppose evolution and yet you don't even have the knowledge to know that evolution is a fact - presented as a SCIENTIFIC THEORY. A scientific theory is not something someone just thought up, it is scientifically testable and falsifiable.

    "and Maragon, this is not about winning, its about the ability to reason and use common sense."

    You're right. And I'm trying to get you to utilize reason and common sense, as of yet, you have not.

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  25. Brittany,

    "Christianity is no where close to being the largest or most popular religion in the world."

    Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leads unto life, and few are they that find it.


    Please don't assume that I care about or am swayed by anything that your book of fables says. I regard the bible in the same way you regard the Koran - something men made up.

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  26. maragon,

    "Please don't assume that I care about or am swayed by anything that your book of fables says. I regard the bible in the same way you regard the Koran - something men made up."

    Yet, it( the bible/scripture) just answered your fact. Truthfully.

    The word of God is truth, yet you reject the truth. Why?

    In Christian Love,
    Brittany

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  27. Jean:

    Yawn.....

    You are parroting worn-out fundamentalist talking points.

    1. You think a theory is simply a guess. This isn't the case when the term is used by scientists. Scientific theories are strongly backed by evidence. Since you apparently don't understand this, no one is going to take you seriously when you comment on evolution or science. You think it must be wrong because it somehow violates your common sense. Science doesn't care if something agrees with your common sense or not. It goes where the evidence leads. Do you think quantum mechanics is common sense?

    2. Google Pascal's Wager and you'll see why it is a lame argument that won't convince any atheist.

    3. I don't know exactly how things work in the UK, but US public schools are not permitted to advocate Christianity. It is a violation of the first amendment. Just because you think it is the only true religion does not make it a fact. There is no evidence to demonstrate it as such.

    I now charge you, go forth and find some better arguments. I suggest you find them somewhere other than Ray Comfort's blog.

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  28. "Yet, it( the bible/scripture) just answered your fact. Truthfully."

    No, it didn't. All your silly book did was predict that multiple people would be too intelligent to believe in it. I'm sure the Koran, the Torah and any other holy book makes similar claims. How do you answer to them?

    "The word of God is truth, yet you reject the truth. Why?"

    I reject all things that are illogical and unproven. Why do you not?

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  29. Brittany & Jean,

    A couple of serious questions for the both of you. First of all, I'm going to assume that when you say that Christianity should be taught in schools, you mean that it should be taught as though it's all true, correct? After all, I teach about Christianity in my class, as I do about many other world religions, but I don't comment on its truthfulness one way or the other. I tell my students that it's up to them to decide what to believe.

    Anyway, assuming that my assumption is true, my questions are:

    1. Would you trust me to teach it? After all, I am a teacher, yet I am an atheist. Do you really think that I'd teach it the way you'd want it to be taught? Do you believe that people like me should be fired then? If so, then what about separation of church and state? Do you not believe in that concept?

    2. Which version of Christianity do you think should be taught? Orthodox? Catholic? Lutheran? Fundamentalism? It's not like there's complete agreement amongst Christians.

    I honestly wonder if either of you have considered either of those two things with your statements. I could be wrong though, so I'd appreciate a response.

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  30. Jean and brittney--

    I gave a little shout-out to you both...

    Welcome to Raytractors!

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  31. Jean Gasho-Musuka said...

    Christianity should be tought in Schools because it is the only true religion. There is only one God and every child should be tought about their Maker.

    That's an assertion you make. There is NO proof whatsoever that your deity is real, or if he is real, that he created anything at all.
    Personally I believe the Flying spaghetti monster created us all.

    So let's start teaching that in schools. And while they are at it, don't forget the norse Odin myth, the invisible Pink unicorn, Islam, Budhism, Mormonism, The juju of the mountain, The fact that the Japanese Emporer was a God untill the end of WW-II, The egyptian gods, Roman gods, Greek gods, Keltic gods, Azted gods, Mayan gods and the rest.

    I have nothing against teaching children about religion, but then teach them about all (mayor) religions. Don't just teach them one of the thousands of possible gods and ignore the rest. Also explain that the evidence for all gods is precisely the same NONE. That's why you use words like 'believe', 'dogma' and 'faith'. Simply because there is no evidence at all to proof your god exists, let alone that he (she?) created anything.

    Also I noticed in one of your posts that your argument against evolution was that it's just a theory. That argument is so lame that even Answers in Genesis says you should not use it. Now if even they say it's lame, it must be really really really lame. When ever you use that argument try to remember that gravity is also just a theory... http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp

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  32. Ray Comfort is a dishonest asshole.

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  33. C3p0r2d2 said
    There is NO proof whatsoever that your deity is real, or if he is real, that he created anything at all.
    Personally I believe the Flying spaghetti monster created us all.

    There is absolute proof that God is real. Firstly His glory is revealed in creation. Your conscience bears witness, the law of God, you know the ten commandments are written on your heart. The fact that you hate him so much also testifies about God because the bible says you are born God- hating, a sinner.

    About the Spaghetti monster, for a start I dont hate it. Dont go out of my way to discredit its followers like you. Dont feel its a threat to free thinking.... Am not angry about it. See the difference?

    Lance christian... would not have a problem with you teaching the true word of God, the bible.

    And about Answers in Genesis, i know Ken Ham, have actually been to his conferences, but dont agree with everything he says. Hes not my enemy though, or a threat...

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  34. Jean Gasho-Musuka,

    You said,
    "It is wrong to teach evolution in schools because it is not a fact but a theory."

    It is obvious that you have no understanding whatsoever about the natural sciences, especially biology and evolution. It's OK though, most Chrisdtians are in the same boat. So, science challenged people then must take quotes from people like Ken Ham to defend their faith.

    Let me put it like this. Say I am a lawyer. You are an elementary school teacher. We meet at a social affair and you try to pass yourself off as a lawyer. I will instantly know that you are a fraud and a phoney. Now, it is obvious that you are a fraud and a phoney where it comes to science because in every beginning science course starting in junior high school, within the first two classes of the course, the definition of scientific hypothesis and scientific theory is discussed at length.

    You do not even have an elementary inderstanding of what you are so certain of.

    So, take a lesson:

    In the natural sciences, Theory is the highest degree of certainty granted to scientific explanations.

    "Theory" of gravity- Germ "Theory"

    A "Theory" has to meet many criteria including that it must be fasifiable, which evolution could be falsified in any number of ways, and it must predict future findings, which the theory of evolution continues to do. It also must have empirical evidence, of which there is a vast amount of evidence for evolution.

    When you say to look at the universe- that proves the existence of a god, that is an opinion. There is no evidence. It cannot be falsified (I say there is an invisible being in the closet in my den- you cannot falsify that and I cannot provide evidence.)

    There is no need for you to respond to this because you will only repeat the crackpot answers that you have memorized and trust me, we've heard them all.

    You might want to look up some of the key words that I have used in this comment and come to an understanding of their meanings. I don't even ask you to accept evolution but you come off as churlish and lazy with your lame, tired and worn out lies.

    Next. You are constantly stating that we "hate" god. That is just not so. I have no emnity for any mythical beings. Could I hate, the easter bunny, santa claus, Zeus, Thor, Poseidon? Of course not. Don't be silly.

    I am a staunch defender of the first ammendment though, as you will see. The first ammendment is the only reason that all the competing christian sects in this country aren't at perpetual war for the control of the government.

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  35. Look,
    you two would suggest that evolution should not be taught in schools because it is simply a theory. Then you say that Christianity should be taught in Schools because the God of Christianity is the one true God. We say, "there is no God". and you say, "prove it".

    Do you see the problem with this? In the one case you say the burden of proof is on the scientists to prove that evolution exists and is not simply a theory. Following that the burden of proof is on you to prove that God exists.

    So,
    lets see your proof please.

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  36. Jean Gasho-Musuka,
    You said,
    "There is absolute proof that God is real."

    Along with Hypothesis and Theory, you also need to check into the definition of the word "Proof."

    Trust me, you don't have any proof, which equates to empiricle evidence.

    "I know in my heart"- Not proof
    "The bible says.."- Not Proof
    "Ken Ham said..."- Not Proof
    "Look into a child's eyes."- Not Proof

    "Look at nature" - Not Proof

    Now, when yopu do come up with some "Proof," please let me know because you will instantly become the most famous person in the entire universe.

    Religion is a philosophy combined with superstitions; nothing more.

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  37. "The Only True Religion"

    Brittany, Jean, if either of you had read any history then you would know how many times those words have been backed up by violence.

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  38. Jean,

    Lance christian... would not have a problem with you teaching the true word of God, the bible.

    Even though I don't believe it? Don't you think that I'd subvert the message a bit? And trust me, I'm pretty subversive.

    Your conscience bears witness, the law of God, you know the ten commandments are written on your heart.

    Not working on the Sabbath is written on my heart? Shoot, and here I was planning on homebrewing. I guess I can also forget about making that graven image, since I guess that's on my heart.

    Come on, Jean, that's an absurd statement.

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  39. Jean Gasho-Musuka said...

    There is absolute proof that God is real. Firstly His glory is revealed in creation.

    Nah, the FSM did it. Just look at all the proof!

    Your conscience bears witness, the law of God, you know the ten commandments are written on your heart.
    As it happens, I've seen my actual hearth, thanks to some surgery and a surgeon I know. I can assure you nothing was written on it.

    The fact that you hate him so much also testifies about God because the bible says you are born God- hating, a sinner.

    I cannot hate something that doesn't exist, so I don't hate any god or goddess. As for the sinning, can't say I care to much. Since to me the bible is just another book like the torah, quran, snow white and the seven dwarfs and all the other fairy tales and myths.
    Question for you: The bible has a lot about slavery, how much slaves cost, how much you can beat them etc. Does that mean so think we should go back to slavery? It's in the bible, so you can't disagree it's fully within the word of the lord to keep slaves. Now looking at your avatar, I wonder if you really want to take the full text of the bible as the truth to be obeyed.

    How can you defend the bible, when that same book promotes slavery, misogyny and genocide?

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  40. @Jean--

    You asked:

    So Ray does pose some sort of threat to atheists as you have admitted. intersting!

    What threat does he pose in the 'socio-political realm' which is quite 'serious and severe'?


    as well as:

    Why are you so afraid of us pushing our beliefs on others- are you scared that they may be converted and believe in the one true God of the bible. Why does that concern you?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Fair enough questions, and deserve a straight answer. Here it is:

    It is wrong to teach evolution in schools because it is not a fact but a theory.

    Even though you hate God you cannot stop Him. That is why children should be tought the Word Of God, especially children of atheists and other false religions.


    Any woman who kills her unborn baby is actually a murderer. For that reason no true Christian should ever vote for anyone who is pro-abortion. This is why I have to say I do not support Barack Obama and will do my best to encourage others not to vote for him. Abortion should never be an option for any woman, it is evil.



    Christianity should be tought in Schools because it is the only true religion. There is only one God and every child should be tought about their Maker.


    You ask why we oppose people like Ray? You answered those questions yourself!

    We oppose Ray because his ministry churns out smiling, hollow chanters of scripture who elected the clown Geo. W Bush to the White House 2X, and who would turn the clock back 2000 years. I have no interest in your "pure", Biblical Taliban-like utopia, thanks just the same.


    If I can ask: Would you have America go back to original, 10-commandments based law? Like in the Old Testament?

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  41. atheist/non-believers,

    I was cruising the internet and found this interesting piece of work written by a former atheist.
    I read this and thought about all you guys here and thought I would share.

    Hope you enjoy!

    http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

    In Christian Love,
    Brittany

    ReplyDelete
  42. About slavery all the answers are in the bible for you.
    Slaves are told to be obedient to their masters, and masters are told to be fair to their slaves. The bible does not say slavery is wrong. And I dont believe its wrong if its done in a godly way. In biblical times, slaves did actually benefit from slavery because they had nothing to live on.
    I myself am a slave of Christ, I was bought by the blood of Jesus. I do not do my will but my master's will.
    Non Christians are slaves of their master, the Devil.
    Every person is a slave anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  43. And I dont believe its wrong if its done in a godly way.

    20And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

    21Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. (KJV)

    Really?

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  44. Jean, I don't even want to know how it's possible to enslave a person "in a godly way."

    Fail

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  45. @jean--

    About slavery all the answers are in the bible for you.
    Slaves are told to be obedient to their masters, and masters are told to be fair to their slaves. The bible does not say slavery is wrong. And I dont believe its wrong if its done in a godly way. In biblical times, slaves did actually benefit from slavery because they had nothing to live on.
    I myself am a slave of Christ, I was bought by the blood of Jesus. I do not do my will but my master's will.
    Non Christians are slaves of their master, the Devil.
    Every person is a slave anyway.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Jean--You know what you just did? You just proved that Christianity is evil.

    1. If slavery is evil, and

    2. Christianity endorses slavery, then

    3. Christianity is evil.

    And yes, slavery is evil, and yes, the Bible endorses slavery--which you just admitted.

    QED.

    Questions?

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  46. ^shoot, those verses were out of Exodus, for the record.

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  47. Hi Brittany,

    Your link here: http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

    is full of often de-bunked arguments for god. If you'd like, myself or another Raytrator could explain to you why we reject each of those arguments.

    Have a nice day,

    Maragon. =)

    ReplyDelete
  48. Brittany,

    I read through the link. Here are the problems with it:

    The author makes several points, all of which are thoroughly debunked reasons for belief in a deity.

    In point 1 they use the argument from design.

    In point 2 they use the argument from irreducible complexity.

    In point 3 they use the God probability argument.

    In point 4 they use the argument ad populum.

    In point 5 they use the argument from personal experience.

    Point 6 is an appeal to emotion and also an attempted argument from scripture.


    I may have missed some, or skipped some, but in looking at the link in brief that is what I came up with.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Brittany:

    What do you think would happen if a non-believer tried to post a link to The Panda's Thumb or Talk Origins or The Richard Dawkins' site over on Ray's blog?:-)

    ReplyDelete
  50. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Ray's clearly lying about his links policy too, brittany. You don't have to take my word for it, either. You already know that accusation is true. Look at how many times Ray's fave Christian troll Terry Burton has been allowed to post URLs over our objections.

    And if he's lying about that--what else is he lying about?

    ReplyDelete
  52. Most of the time I wade through the posts I find that someone else has already stated what I was going to say. Thanks guys, I appreciate it. :)

    ReplyDelete

Unlike Ray we don't censor our comments, so as long as it's on topic and not spam, fire away.

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