Suppose you arrive in Heaven only to discover that your parents, your siblings, your spouse, your children, your friends, all the people that you ever loved, having failed to "make the grade" as you did, are now in Hell, where they will be tortured forever, by decree of the God with whom you now get to live with for all eternity. Would you be sad? Angry?
Cynthia:
I can't fully understand not being sad that my family is not with me, but I trust God that it wont be an eternal awareness.
Me:
So you believe that you wouldn't be sad that your family would be, not just absent from your life, but in actual physical torture for all eternity?
Cynthia:
Actually, I believe all my family will be in heaven. But yes, I believe that I will not have an eternal awareness. What I have a problem with is thinking about it in the here and now. So, I do something about it now while I can, because the thought of anyone in my family ending up in hell is unbearable. The fact that it's unbearable to think about doesn't alter what I believe.
Me:
But should that happen, then you believe they will end up in hell, and that you won't have an "eternal awareness" of it -- meaning, I presume, you'll forget all about them, and that they're being tortured forever.
And you don't have a problem with that?
Cynthia:
Everyone, my family included, makes their choices about heaven and hell. I've done my best to turn my kids in the right direction, but ultimately the choice is theirs. I do not believe I will be aware of anyone's absence in heaven. I also do not believe that I will be aware of hell at that time either.
Me:
Do you, or do you not, have a problem with that?
Cynthia:
No, I have no problem with it.
Me:
As an atheist, I would have a huge problem with that -- doesn't that make me a more caring person than you?
Cynthia:
I believe I am the more caring of the two of us because I care about their eternal state and you don't even believe they have one past being dead.
The price of Christianity is your humanity.
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I think that the doctrine of hell and not being about to live with the cognitive dissonance of being in heaven with a god while watching your family burn is one of the reasons the wishy washy Christianity took such a foothold. It allows you to still believe in a heaven, but no hell, or at least a softer, kinder hell where you are just separated from god, not burning forever.
ReplyDeleteI remember when I heard about the 'you're gonna watch your family burn in hell' thing as a kid and I thought that was really, really, twisted and couldn't figure out why the adults around me didn't see that.
Of course, if people would realize that's it's all mythology and legend anyway we wouldn't have to have these discussions.
But with that said, kudos to Cynthia for wading in there and giving an answer.
ReplyDeleteYeah, thank you, Cynthia.
ReplyDeleteThough I ask how concerned you REALLY are for their eternal state if you're just going to forget all about them anyway? Why does it matter, what is the point of making relationships here if you're just going to forget about the people not in heaven? Why bother trying to bring people to God if their eternal state is inevitably a worthless position? After all, if you forget about your family burning in hell, why would you remember those living in heaven?
Is it cowardice (moral or otherwise) or just simply a lack of concern for her family members?
ReplyDeleteI know I and for that matter almost everyone I know would fight against any entity, regardless of how futile it might be, who would condemn our families to eternal torture. I think I would fight against any entity who would condemn a stranger to an eternity of torture, even for the most minor transgretions. It goes without saying that such an entity would be hated by anyone of good conscience. I just want to slap people who are so blatantly retarded as to claim such a monster is not only just but ultimately just and loves everyone. I think Cynthia is evil and doesn't really understand what caring actually means.
Totally incomprehensible. Cynthia, even Abraham argued with God to save the city of Sodom. Can you not make some protest to God? Is there not some small part of you that squirms in discomfort at God's plan to torture someone you love? I really think you worship a sadist and the worst part is you have been brought down to his level. Because you approve and support a plan of eternal torture you are just as bad or worse than any worldly tyrant.
ReplyDeleteI think it represents a kind of moral disability. It's a manifestation of their addiction - they cling so deparately to this belief system that offers them easy answers to the complexities of life, along with whatever brain activity is involved in the experience of being in "communion" with God (elevated serotonin levels, or whatever), that they are consummately willing to abandon anyone, even their children, for all of eternity.
ReplyDeleteI won't even attempt to engage Christians these days. All you ever get out of them is some variation on , "God's ways are not our ways", "You can't understand because you don't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit", etc. It always ends up being due to our insufficiency.
When a Christian is attempting to defend the concept of eternal damnation, I'm put in mind of Buddhism, in which the goal (in most schools) is not to become a Buddha, but a Bodhisattva - a being who could attain complete enlightenment and leave suffering behind permanently, but chooses instead to remain within this suffering reality, taking rebirth again and again in whatever capacity is necessary to relieve the suffering of sentient beings and to help to guide them toward enlightenment. In Buddhism, you don't enter into "salvation" until you've ushered all other beings in ahead of you. In Christianity, it's a purely individual phenomenon - "I've got mine; you get yours."
It's actually because of the existence of millions of Christian and Islamic fundamentalists that I've largely given up on humanity. I can't believe that beings who are perfectly complacent about the idea of billions of their human siblings being tortured for all of eternity are capable of solving their problems. The irony is that they see themselves as representing the "cure", yet, in my view, they are the most egregious manifestation of the illness of which humanity needs so desperately to be healed, but probably never will be. It is they, more than any other factor, who have convinced me that humanity is a terminal species, and that we probably haven't got much time left.
The free will to choose hell is a demonstration of God's love for us.
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking a lot, lately, on that statement that I keep seeing when Christians defend eternal damnation. And I've come to the conclusion that, if that is a demonstration of God's capacity to love us, then I have an infinitely greater capacity to love than God.
I have a three year old son. I love him. I love him so much that I would never, oh I don't know, give him a choice between shooting himself or getting a lifetime supply of candy. I will never place a loaded gun and the proverbial "golden ticket" in front of him and then leave it up to him, even though I'm fairly certain what his choice would be. I mean, one choice is CLEARLY better than the other.
But I'd never put it to the test. Why? Other than it being a completely psychotic thing to do, my son wouldn't understand the severity of the choices. Even if he did, I still wouldn't place him in that situation. Because I love him, I helped make him and I want what's best for him.
Back to the choice of heaven and hell, if the supposed god loved us, he/she/it wouldn't give us a choice. We would all go to heaven...end of story.
Christians claim that without free will, we wouldn't appreciate that gift. Come on! Really? Who among us would be upset if we had millions of dollars thrust upon us against our will? I sure wouldn't (If anyone would like to test that, feel free to email me).
And that's just money! I don't know anyone who wouldn't appreciate this theoretical infinite bliss whether they chose it or not.
If a loving god is real and heaven is real, then we all go to heaven. If the heaven/hell decision is real, then my love for my son...no, scratch that. My love for ANYBODY is infinitely greater than god's.
If you don't remember family members in heaven, and you also never experience envy, anger, sadness, regret, or lust in what sense are you still you?
ReplyDeleteIn paradise, you also wouldn't experience ambition, would you? Pride? Shame? Take all these things away, and what do you have left? Something unrecognizable as being you. Stripped of all these emotions, wouldn't every person be exactly the same?
Is everyone in Heaven equally smart? Equally talented? Does talent even exist in Heaven? What are people talented at?
If you don't remember family members in heaven, and you also never experience envy, anger, sadness, regret, or lust in what sense are you still you?
ReplyDeleteThis is another important question that makes Christians uncomfortable. What is it, precisely, that survives? Many of them still have this medieval idea of a disembodied spirit that enters a body, as though it was putting on a suit of clothing, then leaves at death - the "ghost in the machine".
We've seen that making even slight alterations to the physical structure of the brain, or to its chemical environment, can produce profound changes in personality. Who are we? If someone accepts Jesus, then gets Alzheimer's and loses all of his or her memory, is he/she still the same person? Is s/he still "saved"? Who is it that stands before God?
Ok, Something with the comments is bothering me.
ReplyDeleteWhy have we decided that Cynthia has lost her humanity? I mean, didn't she say that she worries about people's eternal state?
The question was specifically about a hypothetical situation in eternity. Not the answer I would have given or what I believe, but a hypothetical future scenario (which she doesn't even believe is a possibility) doesn't have any bearing on who she is now. Especially if her belief stems from the fact that God would do everything to protect her from emotional pain.
Why have we decided that Cynthia has lost her humanity? I mean, didn't she say that she worries about people's eternal state?
ReplyDeleteBecause, even thought she may do everything she can to convert her children while they are alive, ultimately, if it doesn't take, she's willing to give them up. I'd never abandon my child, and I'm not even a particularly good person.
Because the belief system itself - which is, I think, what Dave is trying to get her to see (although he won't succeed) - is intrinsically immoral.
I once read a blog post by a liberal Catholic man. His young son had been attending catechism classes, and, as he was putting the child to bed, he asked him, "Daddy, will I go to hell?" Naturally, he should have said, "Of course not!" and pulled him out of the class, but the answer he gave him was significant nonetheless. He told him, "I don't know, but if you do - I'm going with you."
That is the difference.
Rob said,
ReplyDeleteOk, Something with the comments is bothering me.
Why have we decided that Cynthia has lost her humanity?
Well it wasn't a decision, it was an opinion, and to be fair, "we" didn't opine it -- I, alone, did.
I mean, didn't she say that she worries about people's eternal state?
Yes, in the here and now -- but once that state is fixed and the torture has begun, she won't worry about it then. That future lack of worry is the problem.
The question was specifically about a hypothetical situation in eternity. Not the answer I would have given or what I believe, but a hypothetical future scenario (which she doesn't even believe is a possibility) doesn't have any bearing on who she is now. Especially if her belief stems from the fact that God would do everything to protect her from emotional pain.
Exactly my point. Christianity, Cynthia's brand of it in particular, is a sort of emotional hedonism.
@ cipher:
ReplyDeleteYour response implies that she has a choice, and is choosing to abandon her children.
I know her worldview. I grew up in it, and such is not the case.
This belief is that if her children and family do not accept Christ, which would be completely without her knowing, she would have no memory of her family ties that ended in Hell.
Not that she would abandon them. That she wouldn't remember.
The idea is that, if heaven is a place of no suffering, then anything that makes them suffer would be absent, including their memory of family. The idea is that God wouldn't let them remember, not that she would choose to forget.
Again, not exactly an idea that I agree with, but it doesn't say anything about her as a person at all.
On the matter of the Catholic man, does he say that he would choose hell, or that his and his son's beliefs are so identical that they're either both wrong or right? I'm not familiar with the blog you're talking about, and I haven't read it.
Rob,
ReplyDeleteOf course she has a choice. In fact, the entire Christian world view is based upon the idea of freedom of choice. That's how the theology is justified - we are, supposedly, free to choose. As I said earlier, I think this is nonsense, as, by their own admission, we don't perceive reality accurately or fully understand the consequences of our actions ("We see as through a glass darkly..."), but there it is.
When you say,
Not that she would abandon them. That she wouldn't remember.
you're reducing it to a matter of semantics. She's choosing to believe in a God who would torment them for all of eternity, and would cause her to be unaware of their suffering. It's virtual abandonment.
Regarding the Catholic guy - he's saying that he would choose to go to hell rather than abandon his son. Naturally, from my perspective, it's the wrong response; either he shouldn't believe it in the first place (the only acceptable option, in my opinion), or he should tell the boy, flat out, "You're not going to hell" - because, frankly, I regard threatening children with hell as a form of child abuse and I feel very strongly that it should be illegal. However, my point was that his heart was in the right place; he's telling his son that he wouldn't abandon him, under any circumstances.
@ cipher:
ReplyDeleteYes, we are free to choose. However, she is absolutely convinced that the loved ones you're talking about are not going to Hell, so she can't be actively choosing to leave them there.
I don't see it as a mater of semantics, really. There's a bigger difference between choosing God expecting one thing to get another, and actively choosing the one thing than just semantics.
Thanks for clearing up the Catholic guy's blog post.
Yes, we are free to choose. However, she is absolutely convinced that the loved ones you're talking about are not going to Hell, so she can't be actively choosing to leave them there.
ReplyDeleteShe isn't absolutely convinced. I don't know where you're getting this. Go back and read her posts again.
I'm done. I didn't come here to argue with Christians.
@ cipher:
ReplyDeleteCynthia:
Actually, I believe all my family will be in heaven.
I don't suppose I have any right to say "she's absolutely convinced," but I doubt highly that "I believe" removes so much from the point I'm trying to make.
Sorry I got argumentative. I simply don't see how her belief means she has given up her humanity, and I had to stand up for her the same way people have done for me.