Christians believe that God sometimes intervenes in human affairs. Specifically, Christians believe God sometimes heals people with incurable diseases or injuries.
They believe He can heal cancer.
They believe He can heal heart disease.
They believe He can heal diabetes, and so on.
But notice something: He never heals amputees. If He can heal all those other conditions, why not amputees?
So, why does it matter?
Well, it matters because in all the cases God chooses to treat, the healing could also be explained by faulty diagnosis, the patient's own immune system doing its job, or the patient could have actually been cured by the doctor.
But with an amputee--None of these counter-explanations are possible. If a group of Christians were to hover over an amputee and pray like mad, and in response the patient's leg suddenly started to sprout back before their eyes, that could only be explained by a miracle.
And that never happens. Christians, how do you account for this?
Go to the excellent website Why Won't God Heal Amputees to learn more.
Posts
Capt. Hawkeye,
ReplyDeleteI was at Ray's once and one of the fundies said 'Don't try to send me to that stupid God Hates Amputees site' !!
I wondered to myself 'Why not? Why not face it and answer it? How can you possibly believe that their is a deity at work in all these other diseases that are supposedly cured when the ONE THING that would be truly convincing--healing an amputee--has never happened?'
I do not understand how people rationalize this. People attribute so many things to the work of a deity, things like a conversation, finding car keys, not being killed in a wreck where others where killed, Aunt Beulah's gout getting better, ect. But there are natural factors at work in all of those instances. But any time that something happens and they can't explain it, especially if it is fortuitous for them or their loved ones, they say 'Goddidit'. I don't get it.
God DOES heal amputees. You just don't have enough faith to see it. Ever hear of phantom limb syndrome?
ReplyDelete(Joking, of course)
Mike, next you'll be telling me that god really does heal amputees because they can get prosthetics. Yep, someone actually told me that.
ReplyDeleteActually, I've had discussions along these lines with born-agains, who reply that "Hey, you think an artificial limb isn't healing?"
ReplyDeleteI'm not making that up, either.
You also notice that no Christians have ventured an explanation so far.
ReplyDeleteNT--
ReplyDeleteHow's this--any better?
God doesn't say yes to all prayers. They're called miracles because they don't happen all the time. I saw some Christian amputees on TV who love Jesus.
ReplyDeleteThose are some of the answers I've received from a very good friend who is a Christian. I told him we're not asking why God doesn't heal all amputees. Why doesn't he heal just one? Isn't there some child somewhere who lost its legs to a landmine who is at least as deserving of being healed as all of these people who have had their gout and bad backs and acne healed? Just one?
Of course not, Captain. Most theists won't touch this one.
ReplyDeleteCapt., you just gave me my first and BEST laugh of the day !!! I love it !!!
ReplyDeleteThank you !! ;)
You guys think this is funny, but amputees are the worst people on Earth. You have no idea. If I were God, I wouldn't heal them either.
ReplyDeleteJason,
ReplyDeleteI have to agree. What with all that praying and begging god to give them a new limb(s) !! Who the hell do they think they are anyway ???
God has IMPORTANT things to do like raise money for Ray's failing ministry and helping Terry to understand that you can actually put more than one post on a damn blog and not have to have 45,000 of them. Those pesky amputees must think that god actually listens to prayer and answers it!!! Silly amputees!!
Besides, you just know they did something to deserve it.
ReplyDeleteI mean, don't kids in Afghanistan know better than to play in minefields?
This is an example of how xians think when it comes to questions like this. ::::headdesk:::
ReplyDeleteHawkeye,
ReplyDeleteWell they were born into original sin and haven't accepted Da Jeeeeezus so god led them out into the mine field to extract his loving anger on them.
See, if you just think about it, god makes all kids of sense!
kinds, not kids.
ReplyDeleteNT:
ReplyDeleteThis is an example of how xians think when it comes to questions like this. ::::headdesk:::
LOL. Epic Fail. It's not omnipotent God's role to grow back an amputee's limb. It's science's!
God 1, Science 0
Rando, how did I miss that?
ReplyDeleteHere is what Reasons to Believe has to say about why god won't heal amputees. Not since Vera tried to explain how 'neat' it is that god kills kids have I seen such a pile of idiotic shit as this RTB nonsense.
This must be a tuffy. Not a Christian in sight!
ReplyDeleteI answered Cap, but I wasn't serious.
ReplyDeleteIf I were to actually give a serious answer, it would be something like: I have no idea, and it makes it very difficult to believe in him.
I would not talk about my Christian beliefs on Ray's blog. Pearls before swine and all that.
Also, since I'm not trying to convert anybody, the questions aren't really targeted at me, so I haven't been answering.
ReplyDeletecaptain howdy said...
ReplyDelete{{{This must be a tuffy. Not a Christian in sight!}}}
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[REPLY]
If I am not willing to reply to the tough questions, then I really don't have much of a faith - but I just can't read everything on these blogs - I can't read all the comments at Ray's site - and I can't read all that is here either. I just skip and skim for the most part, and happened upon this thread.
This is an excellent question - and I believe the answer is He has healed amputees. I have no proof or actual knowldege for this particular miracle - but the world is big and we are only one small corner of it. You would then probably say but this is big news and it would be in all the papers and on the internet, etc. Not necessarily.
I do know of an individual that had a withered arm restored in a matter of seconds.
And my own dad was instantly healed of a shoulder injury while watching Pat Roberson. The odd thing there is my dad was a huge skeptic all his life and we only found out quite some time after the fact about all this. He would secretly watch the show late at night. Only after he accepted Christ (as a direct result of his being healed) did he confess this to us all some weeks later. He is the last of my immediate family to be saved - he is in his 70's. That didn't make the papers.
But I digress - that is not an amputee, I know. I only bring it up to illustrate that God isn't a Ringmaster in a circus. He doesn't perform on cue. He doesn't perform for our fascination to see something mircaculous. It has to have a specific purpose for a specific person(or person group). My dad's healing was for him to see that God is real and cares about him personally - at the very moment he was ready to receive it. It was not a show for anyone else.
We have mutiple witnesses (over 20) that saw my #3 son (at about age 4) running down a fairly steep hill towards traffic. No one was near enough to catch him. All watched as he suddenly (as in "suddenly!") stopped and fell backwards. It was described as if he hit a "wall". Children running down hill don't suddenly stop short and fall over flat backwards. No, his feet did not go out from under him - he stopped and fell over - not his feet flipping up from under him.
Then there is the young lady cook in #2 son's unit in Iraq that had the mortar go off 10 yds. from her. She stood in a pool of shrapnel 360 degrees around her. She had no cut on her anywhere.
There are miracles everywhere - but even if there was never a miracle, I would still believe. See, for me the real mircale is that Jesus saved me - all the rest is just getting a job done. You all tend to see that reversed. You want the miracle so that you can say there is a God - and you say then you will believe on Him. God knows your heart. If it is true that seeing a miracle you would then believe - I think you might get that miracle - like my dad did. But if in your heart you are just curious and fascinated and seeing a miracle really wouldn't change your beliefs - then you probably won't be seeing a miralce anytime soon.
Blessings,
Patti
In reply to the crap from the link that nonmagical included, Matthew 7:7-8.
ReplyDeleteI'm waiting for a believer to say it's out of context.
And same old RTB bullshit. If I saw video and medical documentation of an amputee, then I saw video and medical documentation showing that amputee's limbs had regenerated, at the very least I'd think something very unusual was going. At the least.
"God" doesn't heal amputees, because "God" doesn't heal, period.
NT, why do you post such links that slay me. I could not help myself but refute () this idiot. He had it coming.
ReplyDelete{{{In reply to the crap from the link that nonmagical included, Matthew 7:7-8.
ReplyDeleteI'm waiting for a believer to say it's out of context.}}} (snip)
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[REPLY]
I am not sure what context you are putting it into - but here is where it does fit. Matt. chapters 5-7 are what is called the Beatitudes. Look at 5:1&2. Jesus is speaking to His disciples - not to all the thousands that followed Him around. He had gone up onto the mountain to get away from the multitudes - and He was alone with the 12 disciples. The multitudes don't come back into the picture until chapter 8:1 when Jesus and the 12 come back down.
So Matt. 7:7-8 is written to believers only. That is the context. I can only speak for me - but I have found this promise to be true. Again, not at the snap of my fingers as to when and what I thought the best reply - but always beyond my expectations.
Blessings,
Patti
Patti:
ReplyDeleteWhen a Muslim makes claims like yours and claims Allah performed a miracle, what's going on?
Rufus said...
ReplyDelete{{{Patti:
When a Muslim makes claims like yours and claims Allah performed a miracle, what's going on?}}}
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[REPLY]
I could not possibly know the answer - I don't want to try to answer for God - but I have a couple thoughts to consider -
The Bible says that the rain falls on the just and the unjust. God can perform a miracle for anyone that He so choses, for reasons only He knows.
The Bible also says that Satan is an angel of light and that he can work miracles too - especially in the natural realm. This was the case where Moses was addressing Pharaoh and the magicians of Pharaoh imitated some of the miracles done by Moses. And this will also happen in the last days(which I believe are now upon us.) Matt. 24:24 is one such reference.
Just some possible explanations.
Blessings,
Patti
Patti:
ReplyDeleteFirst, thanks for spinning Matthew 7:7-8. I knew someone could do it.
If God, your God, the "real" God, performs a miracle for a Muslim and the Muslim has been raised to believe that Allah is the only "real" God, wouldn't your God just be reinforcing the Muslim's faith in Allah?
I used to not ask this question, because people would just assume/say that I was heartless and didn't care, yadda yadda yadda, but since it seems most believers think atheists are Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot in disguise anyway, I don't worry about it.
You have no other explanation for what happened to your son, so you believe it was a miracle. Fine. My question is, if he hadn't stopped and went into traffic and being injured or killed, what would you call it then? God's unknowable will/plan? Something like that?
Hi Rufus,
ReplyDeleteThese really are great questions - and ones I have actually thought about myself. I will post to them - but I have to sign off for the evening - and will get back to it in the morning.
Blessings,
Patti
Patti,
ReplyDeleteI love ya dear, but I gotta let you have it on this one.
If there is a god that would heal someone's shoulder pain, I don't care for what reason, but would let kids starve to death then I want to put as much distance as possible between myself and that guy. That kind of deity obviously has issues with priorities.
Why is it that reports of miracles like withered arms being restored never come with any medical proof whatsoever? It's because things like what you described have perfectly natural causes, and just because we may not know yet what they are doesn't mean that godidit.
It's also because of something called confirmation bias. If you believe that something exists, the brain automatically looks for evidence in confirmation of that existence.
Hi Patti--
ReplyDeleteI'm absolutely astonished so few Christians come over to try to defend their beliefs.
I applaud you regardless of your beliefs just for coming over here in the first place. I especially applaud you for coming over trying to deal with a question like this one, because it's a tuffy for Christians. It's one reason I picked it.
I'd like to also point out to you that there are probably 50 or so "committed" Christians over on Ray's blog. These are people who are ostensibly preparing themselves for some heavy-duty witnessing. And look--here we are. All the atheists you could possibly want. But where are Ray's missionaries?
I say the following to all the Christians on Ray's blog:
If you can't come over here and witness to us from the Comfort* of your living room how good of a street preacher will you be?
Come on! Patti's making the rest of you look bad!
Brittany and Patti and Cynthia. Ladies: I say to you--You're making the men over at Ray's look kind of...well, you know.
* Pretty good, huh?
ReplyDeleteYeah, it's funny that so many of Ray's fellow believers won't come over here, because of the language or what have you. I'm pretty sure that Jesus spent most of his time with the "sinners" and dregs of society. I guess they're really living their faith. The same thing with them complaining about atheists posting over there. We're all hypocrites about something. But is there anything more hypocritical than a religious believer?
ReplyDeletePatti:
ReplyDeleteI look forward to your thoughts on those questions, but for now I would like your thoughts on Ray Comfort's outrageous, baldfaced lies in his The Atheist Starter Kit thread. This is his first reply to Rev. BDC:
Ray Comfort said...
"Rev. BigDumbChimp said...
Ray, I'm sensing you were either too lazy or too scared to listen to Dr. Myers' turn on the radio. If not why haven't you responded?"
REv...you mean the guy who was a no-show at the last moment. He was supposed to debate me. I wonder why he didn't show up? Do I smell chicken? Afraid of banana man :).
I am too busy (working on the thrid seaon of our TV program).
August 7, 2008 7:07 PM
I am particularly referring to the part about PZ Myers being a "no-show".
This is another post from another blogger, with statements from the producer of the radio program:
mjarsulic said...
Ray said...
REv...you mean the guy who was a no-show at the last moment. He was supposed to debate me. I wonder why he didn't show up? Do I smell chicken? Afraid of banana man :).
Lying again Ray. Claiming that PZ no-showed is as disingenuous as they come. This is from the producer of the show and is taken from Pharyngula:
"Hello, this is the producer for Ben and Jim in the Morning, the show that was going to have the Ray Comfort/PZ Myers debate. After looking over the responses to Dr. Myers' announcement of the change of plans, I thought I would make a short post answering some of the questions.
Posts numbers 2&8: The decision to change formats from a debate to two separate segments was made this afternoon by myself and the hosts of the show, Ben and Jim. We decided that given the short time available, neither side would be able to construct much in the way of arguments for their respective positions, and it would ultimately be fairer to both sides to give them their own segment to make their case.
As for Mr. Comfort going first, Comfort has a very tight schedule, and Dr. Myers was able to re-schedule easier than Mr. Comfort was. Mr. Comfort will be on the show at ~10:06am CT Tues., Aug. 5th, and Dr. Myers will be on ~10:06am CT Weds., Aug. 6th, each for 20-30 minutes.
We apologize that plans were changed at the last minute, but we still invite you to listen to both Mr. Comfort's and Dr. Myers' respective segments. You can stream the show live from our website, or can stream it later in the day from the website. We do not currently offer podcasts or downloads of our shows, but they are available to listen to on the WDAY website for one week after the air-date. You can live-stream or archive-stream from the WDAY Radio site."
August 7, 2008 7:29 PM
This is Ray's next reply:
Ray Comfort said...
"Reynold said...REv...you mean the guy who was a no-show at the last moment. He was supposed to debate me. I wonder why he didn't show up? Do I smell chicken? Afraid of banana man :).
Apparently, it was the stations' idea."
Sure...
August 7, 2008 7:32 PM
Of course, none of this has anything to do with whether or not Christianity is true. We're talking about Ray Comfort. I've emailed the hosts of the radio program, and I included Ray's comments from his blog, and asked them to help clear it up. But I'm sure Ray will just post another reply like "Sure", or ignore it completely. Look forward to your reples. Take care.
Rufus said...
ReplyDelete{{{Patti:
I look forward to your thoughts on those questions, but for now I would like your thoughts on Ray Comfort's outrageous, baldfaced lies in his The Atheist Starter Kit thread.}}}
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[REPLY]
Sigh, so many questions (big, humongous questions) and so little time. I will tackle this one briefly and then have committed to helping Dd start on a sewing project - and I have the Gr.daughter's school uniforms to finish making and/or fitting - and Dh wants banana (*no pun intended!) muffins today - basically life.......
But I will pop on and tackle some of this as I can.
As to Ray and the debate with PZ Myers.....
A couple thoughts come to mind -
1. Ray didn't know - or didn't understand the program changes. I get the impression he thinks you all are lying to him. He knows you all try to set him up so is responding without checking - a big mistake on his part.
Or -
2. He is lying.
I see #1 as the more likely scenario - it is just too easy to check it out and be caught lying - so I am thinking he is just in his scattered thinking mode and is making assumptions he should be careful about.
Having been both victim and perpetrator of quick and false assumtions, I will just file this incident away in my mind and keep watch over time. Because Ray is "high profile" doesn't make him infallible. It may just be a time for some humble pie ala mode.
I haven't read that thread over at Ray's blog (the Atheist Starter Kit is a bit over the sarcasm line that I find comfortable - so I was ignoring it.) But I will see about mentioning this situation on there - I had actually seen PZ tell about this change a few days before. Course, Ray doesn't know me from anyone else - so I won't count on it having any impact - but I will put it out there for the record.
Blessings,
Patti
ReplyDeleteThey believe He can heal cancer.
They believe He can heal heart disease.
They believe He can heal diabetes, and so on.
Question: if people did regrow amputated limbs on a regular basis, would you attribute it to God or evolution?
That's a good question, Mark, except evolution may be the wrong word.
ReplyDeleteIf God did heal an amputee, how could we distinguish it from some heretofore unknown natural process? The same could really apply to any act you can attribute to God. And if there's no way to know, what is the point of asking the question?
Okay - I will try to tackle some of these questions from Rufus....
ReplyDelete{{{First, thanks for spinning Matthew 7:7-8. I knew someone could do it. }}}
I am unsure what you mean here by spin. Matt5:1-2 is very clear that the multitude is left below and only the disciples are with Jesus here. And then it is clear that the multitudes rejoin them after they descend the mount. The only question I am seeing is the identity and number of the actual disciples.
Granted I deduce the "12", but it could have been others. At one point Jesus sends out a group of 70 disciples. And at the Resurrection there is a group of 120 disciples gathered in the Upper Room. So the disciples on the mount with Jesus could have been more than the 12. But the Bible does clearly distinguish between disciples (believers) and the multitude (those that came to see the miracles or get something from Jesus - or get something on Him.)
So I am interested in hearing where the spin exists.
Blessings,
Patti
Patti:
ReplyDeleteYou've probably seen Ray Comfort's reply. Did you notice that Ray didn't mention his accusations towards PZ Myers or the producer and hosts of the program? I'm still waiting to hear from the folks at the radio program.
Next......
ReplyDelete{{{If God, your God, the "real" God, performs a miracle for a Muslim and the Muslim has been raised to believe that Allah is the only "real" God, wouldn't your God just be reinforcing the Muslim's faith in Allah? }}}
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[REPLY]
I don't know. You're looking at it too static. One of the things I tell Christians (very often) is that God doesn't see time like we do. In our microwave society we want it now.
I can look back over my life and see clear instances of God working in my life to bring me to a place that I needed to be to receive Him. If you took one of those static moments out of the context of my life to date - it wouldn't make sense standing on its own.
[side bar]
This is one reason that I know that some things that still aren't settled are still in the "coming to pass" stage and the full fruitian could be in a few moments - or years away.
[back to topic at hand]
So, if God were to work a miracle for a Muslim there is a reason that directly applies to that person - or someone that would be influenced by it. Maybe that Muslim only acknowledges a belief in Allah at this present time - but 10 years down the road he is given further insight that it is the true Jehovah God that helped Him and that may be a part of his conversion.
Or - maybe it is a miracle wrought by Satan in order to further keep that man in bondage to a false god.
We don't get to see the full picture ..... that is what God does.
Blessings,
Patti
Jason,
ReplyDeleteI guess that was my point, if God did heal amputees it really wouldn't sway skeptics one way or the other.
Furthermore, I bet there were more than a few Christians praising God when they received a prosthetic limbs for the first time.
Mark,
ReplyDeleteCan you think of a way for skeptics or atheists to know whether a healed amputee is the work of God or not?
The only way I could think of is if the exact time, date, and location were predicted ahead of time with great precision and accuracy, and there was well documented evidence that the person really was missing a limb in the first place, and James Randi watched as it grew back. Well, I guess the last one's not a requirement.
ReplyDeleteand James Randi watched as it grew back.
lol
[and finally]
ReplyDelete{{{You have no other explanation for what happened to your son, so you believe it was a miracle. Fine. My question is, if he hadn't stopped and went into traffic and being injured or killed, what would you call it then? God's unknowable will/plan? Something like that?}}}
[REPLY]
To date I have not faced the loss of a child - and hope I do not ever have to - but there are no guarantees.
So the honest answer to that question is I have no clue how I would react.
I once was a victim of an armed robbery (as a cashier). In hindsight it is almost comical - but I am the one that freezes (you know the dummy standing and staring at the bus as it bears down on you and everyone else is trying to figure out why you don't just jump aside!!) Poor robber had to keep yelling at me before I could even mechanically move my arm to hand him a bit of money out of the cash drawer. He finally reached in and grabbed most of it himself. I'm glad he didn't just shoot me.
Back to the point - I have no clue how I would react - but I am confident that God will give me the grace I need to deal with anything I have to face.
The closest I have come is #2 son's year in Iraq. He was in the
4th ID that was a couple weeks behind the first wave of Marines into the country. Communications were terible and we never heard much from him at all. Conditions for the soldiers in his unit were so tough he was working 20-22 hours on, a 3-4 hour rest and then another 20 hours on. He did this for months on end - so writing wasn't a priority on those few hours off. I only knew that as long as a military car carrying two officers didn't show up at my front door - all was well. That was a tough year. Then he came back a bit different than when he left. Had some hard times - and hit a pretty nasty bottom. This was about a 5 year process from the start of down-slide to a finalization that was very tough. After all that time - the moment of truth took place in a blazing few moments. He came to himself (so to speak) and repented and gave his whole self to God. It has been about a year now and God has become his whole life. There have been some repercussions to work out, but they are minor compared to what could have been.
Was it hard and full of much grief for me? - yes. Would I do any of it differently? - never. If this is what it took to get to the place we are at now - I would do it and wait even longer.
I saw the spot on GMA where Steven Curtis Chapman and his wife were speaking about the loss of their little daughter Maria. For them it did go differently than for me. Mrs. Chapman said something so profound to me - no matter what anyone said about God's will and it working together for good - she just wanted her little girl back. I could hear her mommy-heart and weep with her. But she also knows that Maria's death is the reality - and God will help her cope and bring her through to some degree of being able to go on. Then again there are Christians that have been wrecked by traumas. Were they true Chrisitans to begin with? - I don't know. One was my Brit Lit. teacher in college. His young son and only child was accidently killed. He totally went a different direction in his faith. I do not, however, know the end of the story - is he still angry with God? did he come back to his faith?
You are asking for simple answers to very complicated issues - I just don't have pat answers for you. I can only testify to what I have experienced and how God has always challenged, but never disappointed me. He is the only one I have always been able to count on.
Blessings,
Patti
Patti:
ReplyDeleteI have four things to try to reply to, so I've been trying to give them some thought.
Concerning a miracle done for a Muslim: I thought that it might be Satan would be one of your answers, but you probably didn't mean to use the word miracle in connection with Satan. If "your" God performs the miracle in hopes that ten years down the road the Muslim might finally know it was the "true" God, what if that Muslim dies before then? He would have died with his faith in Allah (which, of course, I think is just as irrational as your faith :-).
I simply don't think anything supernatural would had anything to do with your son being stopped before he went into the traffic. If he had went into and been hurt or killed I wouldn't have blamed God or Satan. It would have been the kind of tragedy that happens in the course of life.
Well, it seems that to something like your son not going into the traffic, or anything good or miraculous, believers have a simple answer; but when it's a tragic occurrence, you don't have a simple answer. why isn't there a simple answer to both of them.
As for your son, didn't he recently return to Irag? You obviously don't have my prayers, but you have my best wishes and hopes that he, and all the rest, return safely. I was in the USMC for 6 years. I went into Kuwait with 2/7 Marines in February of '91. And yes, there was an atheist in a foxhole, so to speak, but I was in the closet then. Can you imagine if I had told my DI, or platoon sergeant or battalion commander I wasn't going to church, I was an atheist? I'm ashamed now that I didn't have the courage of my convictions. I imagine it's why I'm so outspoken now.
I have to admit I'm confused about your comments concerning Matthew 7:7-8. Are you saying that God/Jesus only performs miracles for believers? Didn't Jesus perfom miracles for unbelievers and that made them believers?
As for the radio program issue. Of course I read Ray's apology and the emails from the producer of the show. The timing to me seems off. It seems that Ray had enough time to know about the change. And the apology itself seems like a very backhanded apology.
But I'm back to not posting there, so it doesn't matter. You have the courage of your convictions and come to this blog. I admire that. After all, would Jesus avoid sinners because of their vulgar language? Take care.
{{{As for your son, didn't he recently return to Irag? You obviously don't have my prayers, but you have my best wishes and hopes that he, and all the rest, return safely. I was in the USMC for 6 years. I went into Kuwait with 2/7 Marines in February of '91. And yes, there was an atheist in a foxhole, so to speak, but I was in the closet then. Can you imagine if I had told my DI, or platoon sergeant or battalion commander I wasn't going to church, I was an atheist? I'm ashamed now that I didn't have the courage of my convictions. I imagine it's why I'm so outspoken now.}}}
ReplyDelete~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for your good thoughts. He goes back for his 2nd tour in Nov. He was active Army for 3 years - and now is Fl National Guard. He was able to get into satellites - a better job and more suited to him - at least he won't (shouldn't be) on the road in convoys so much. He has training starting in Sept. in Fl, then to TX in Oct. and then to Iraq in Nov. I am hoping that since he will now be the one operating the satellite equipment and the telephones he will call us more often - but knowing him he will give all his time to the other soldiers.
If you had been in his unit - #2 son would have been the one asking you if you thought you were a good person - would you take a test and see..... (bg)
Hoorah.
Blessings,
Patti
{{{I have to admit I'm confused about your comments concerning Matthew 7:7-8. Are you saying that God/Jesus only performs miracles for believers?}}}
ReplyDeleteNo.
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{{{ Didn't Jesus perfom miracles for unbelievers...}}}
Yes.
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{{{...and that made them believers? }}}
Not always.
Blessings,
Patti
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[QUOTE]
ReplyDelete{{{As for the radio program issue. Of course I read Ray's apology and the emails from the producer of the show. The timing to me seems off. It seems that Ray had enough time to know about the change. And the apology itself seems like a very backhanded apology. }}}
[REPLY]
It does sound all very confusing - there were a lot of people involved and messages going back and forth, and computers malfunctioning - and since Ray did back off from calling anyone a liar, I am okay with it being a confused issue - sometimes life is just - well, confused.
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[QUOTE]
{{{But I'm back to not posting there, so it doesn't matter. You have the courage of your convictions and come to this blog. I admire that. After all, would Jesus avoid sinners because of their vulgar language? Take care.}}}
[REPLY]
Thanks, but I am nothing special - just old and battle scared. There is nothing that could be said here that I haven't faced in real life - and that tends to make one less intimidated. Now the first time I faced some of these challenges you would have been quite "unimpressed!
There are many good folks at Ray's blog - and we are all in various stages of learning and growing (atheists and skeptics included.)
I hope that there are Christians reading here and learning. Since I started reading at Ray's blog (and have branched out from there) I have learned tons!!!
I think the first lesson is to always see the "people".
Blessings,
Patti
[QUOTE]
ReplyDelete{{{Well, it seems that to something like your son not going into the traffic, or anything good or miraculous, believers have a simple answer; but when it's a tragic occurrence, you don't have a simple answer. why isn't there a simple answer to both of them.}}}
[REPLY]
To bottom line it - you are right. There is a simple answer to both. As a Christian I believe that nothing happens to me by accident - I make the choices, but God works the details so that I am always a work being conformed to the image of Christ and to be a witness to others of that work.
As a non-believer God is always working to bring you to Him - unless he gives you over to a reprobate mind.
That is simple.
The hard part is I am human and life is complex and this is all going on in various levels and relationships. I don't know 'why' some things happen - but I do simply trust. I don't want to lose someone I love, but I trust that life and death is in God's hands and He sees the whole picture and I trust Him to do what is best. It is hardest to see when it is new. Given time many things become more clear - though not all, not all implications. so I guess some things seem more complicated because there are so many unknown elements.
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ReplyDelete{{{Concerning a miracle done for a Muslim: I thought that it might be Satan would be one of your answers, but you probably didn't mean to use the word miracle in connection with Satan.}}}
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Yes, I did. I mentioned that before - Satan has power in this earthly realm. He can heal and he can give "gifts". It is limited - but possible. He is an angel after all.
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{{{If "your" God performs the miracle in hopes that ten years down the road the Muslim might finally know it was the "true" God, what if that Muslim dies before then? He would have died with his faith in Allah (which, of course, I think is just as irrational as your faith :-).}}}
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God draws all men to Him, and many still reject Him. Are you saying that God shouldn't give someone a miracle because they might still reject Him. You wake up and breath each day and still reject Him. Are you less deserving than a Christian? No, none of us "deserve" the good things we get, but we get them any way. Just some of us are grateful to the source of those gifts, and some are not.
Blessings,
Patti
Hi Pattie:
ReplyDeleteFirst I'd like to ask a small favor. i posted over at Ray's (I couldn't resist), asking him why he removed his "Too Much Attention" thread. He didn't let my post through. I broke none of his rules in the post. Would you mind posting, off topic, of course, and asking him why he removed the Too Much Attention Post, and why he didn't allow mine through? Thanks in advance.
Okay, Satan can grant miracles. But would the Muslim be at fault for believing that it was Allah performing the Miracle?
If your son, or anyone else asked me if I was a "good person" I would simply say that I'm a person. Period. I've done good. I've done bad. I'll continue to do both until I die. Later
Rufus said...
ReplyDeleteHi Pattie:
First I'd like to ask a small favor. i posted over at Ray's (I couldn't resist), asking him why he removed his "Too Much Attention" thread. He didn't let my post through. I broke none of his rules in the post. Would you mind posting, off topic, of course, and asking him why he removed the Too Much Attention Post, and why he didn't allow mine through? Thanks in advance.
[REPLY]
I vaguely remember seeing that posting - but I can't remember what it was about. Can you point me in the right direction - I assume you have it copied somewhere?
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{{{Okay, Satan can grant miracles. But would the Muslim be at fault for believing that it was Allah performing the Miracle? }}}
Yes.
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{{{If your son, or anyone else asked me if I was a "good person" I would simply say that I'm a person. Period. I've done good. I've done bad. I'll continue to do both until I die. Later}}}
You would enjoy talking to him - he is one of the funniest people I have ever met - after you get to know him. I learn all my Monty Python from him.......
"Bring out your dead......."
Blessings,
Patti
Patti:
ReplyDeleteActually, I don't have that post saved myself, but it's been saved here at The Raytractors.
"I think we really are giving him too much attention. It is our constant reaction that helps some Christians think that Ray is really getting to us, or that he has something. If we ignored him he’d be less successful." From an atheist website.This person is right. Why don’t you atheists quietly back off? It’s not helping your cause. Stay on the atheist sites.
That's the text of it. It was posted under the title Too Much Attention. This was after he wrote in his WDAY thread "I am in the very enviable position of having a mass of atheists follow me around, and for some reason they have a habit of embellishing my words. Still, I am honored that so many read my daily blog and welcome more. Thanks again for having me on your program. Best wishes, Ray."
At one point he writes that he's honored that atheists comment on his blog and welcomes more, then in another separate post he tells us to quietly back off. Then when someone asks him about he deletes the one post, and doesn't allow my post asking him about that to go through. This one of the reasons we accuse Ray of being dishonest.
Maybe I should have worded it differently. A Muslim who knew nothing but Islam would be at fault for believing it was Allah performing the miracles? Al he knew of Jesus was that he was simply another prophet?
Are you and your son familar with Monty Python's The Life of Brian? "Blessed are the cheesemakers"?
Here is what I sent in:
ReplyDeleteHello Mr. Comfort,
Rufus, you know him right?, he still talks to me - even after I (self-rightously - sorry)tattled on him for cursing in foreign languages. He asked me, to ask you, why you deleted the blog entry called:
"Too Much Attention", and also why when he asked you about it you didn't allow his question to go through?
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I don't really expect a reply - it is his blog after all and he can write what he wants and take down what he wants - but I will do this for you, Rufus :) I owe you a favor after my ratting you out.
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{{{Maybe I should have worded it differently. A Muslim who knew nothing but Islam would be at fault for believing it was Allah performing the miracles? Al he knew of Jesus was that he was simply another prophet? }}}
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Yes. Everyone - Muslim, Hindu, Santaria, Atheist - all have the witness of God avaliable to them. If in his heart he seeks to know more, God will give more light.
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{{{Are you and your son familar with Monty Python's The Life of Brian? "Blessed are the cheesemakers"?}}}
My boys have all seen it. It isn't one I was really drawn to. And he (#2 son) doesn't quote that one as much as the Holy Grail movie. He is planning to get the complete MP TV series in the near future - probably to take with him to Iraq.
He and Dd are doing the arguing routine of late. We were in Cracker Barrel a couple weeks ago and Dd saw one of those old fashioned bells that you bop for service. She had to buy it and carries it around to time the "argument". "Bing!!" Good Morning - time's up.
Blessings,
Patti
Patti: I had actually forgotten that it was you who told on me. What am I doing talking to you? You don't owe me anything, but thanks. Of course Ray can post and remove what he wants. But this just looks dishonest. There is one of Ray's rules that Terry Burton breaks constantly, even after Ray asked him not to. He continually posts links to his blogs/website. if i tried to post a link to The Panda's Thumb or Talk Origins, i don't think it would be let through.
ReplyDelete"Jesus" only appears in The Life of Brian briefly, and to me, it's respectful. But the movie is satirical about a lot of things. In the one scene, a bunch of people are way at the back during the Sermon on the Mount. Someone says did he say blessed are the cheesemakers? Someone else says, well, you can't take it too literally. I'm sure it applies to all manufacturers of dairy products. I paraphrase, of course. Later
Patti:
ReplyDeleteThanks for asking and getting an answer out of Ray, even if it's suspicious. And he didn't mention why my post asking about it didn't go through. I didn't break any of his rules. Still, thanks.
I will ask #2 son about the movie - we enjoy looking at some of those types of movies and discussing them (and imitiating them) And I have made my own cheeses (see the goat in my avatar?)
ReplyDeleteOh, and we do the Marx Brothers too.
Blessings,
Patti
Patti: If you like the Marx brothers, you can't be all bad.
ReplyDeleteYeah, we can't quite look at Italian bread the same way as we did - remember the scene on the ship with the Italian feast? I think it was Night at the Opera? (I can never keep the titles straight) Some of my children feel they can imitate those plates of food and sling that bread around. How can I teach manners when Chico and Harpo undo it all?
ReplyDeleteHow could they be so funny and yet never use a foul word or an obscene gesture?
Did you think I was all bad?
Blessings,
Patti
Patti: Of course I don't think you are all bad. After all, as Terry Burton has repeatedly stated it's atheists who are all bad; The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
ReplyDeleteNo, the Marx Brothers didn't use vulgar language, etc. But I'm sure that was because of their time. Now days, they'd have free rein.