Over at Ray Comfort's House of Stupid, Ray makes yet another claim for which he has no evidence:
His mother said that her son “loved to drink.” His distraught girlfriend lamented, “I don’t know why God would do this to me.”
My heart went out to her for her loss, but why was she blaming God for the death of her boyfriend? He was the one who was speeding, probably drunk, at 2:00 AM. He killed himself. The incident had nothing to do with God, other than that He allowed it, in His sovereign will."
Ray is correct, "the incident had nothing to do with God". Where I would like Ray to be more explicit is where he claims that the Christian God allowed a man's car to crash into a tree, and that this being exists and is sovereign. Not too much to ask, is it? Why do we let religious people get away with statements like this? If I claim microbes live beneath the surface of Mars, Ray will (presumably) want evidence. This isn't even that extraordinary a claim. Ray's claim is and he should back it up.
Posts
Ray and religion in general are not really interested in evidence, I don't think we will ever get any evidence from him (sigh).
ReplyDeleteI like how Ray said: "He was the one who was speeding, probably drunk, at 2:00 AM. ".
"Probably drunk"? So Ray just assumed this guy was drunk to fit into his "people bring harm upon themselves" story. It's too easy, I'd like to see Ray try to justify the thousands of children with terminal illnesses. But I guess they are just sinners too, worthy of god's justice, right Ray?
Perhaps Ray was drunk when he wrote that. He talks like drunk.
ReplyDeleteI also like how Ray assumes to read the mind of his space-being...what if God did cause the man to crash into the tree...you know, just for amusement.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, what happened to the Christian apologetic of "it's god's will"? Maybe god wanted this man dead, how does Ray know? I think Ray thinks he's god's right hand man or something. Move over Jesus, Ray is god's FAVORITE son!
ReplyDeleteOH!! I just thought of something else, how can the man in the car have free will if god is omniscient? God knew at the beginning of the world that this guy would crash his car, the script was already written. There is nothing this guy could have done that god wouldn't have always known would have happened. Does that mean there is no free will in a Christian world view?
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of a friend of mine back in high school. He used to drive like an idiot, and then when he got in a car crash, he said that it was God's way of telling him that he shouldn't drive so much. (He had notions of being an environmentalist.)
ReplyDeleteOf course, this little story actually supports Ray's position (only to a certain point though), but I thought I'd mention it.
SS,
ReplyDeleteI have posed this same argument to several preachers, I get them to agree with all my premises regarding free-will and god's attributes, then I conclude that we are not free and they say "no, we are" even though they agreed to all the premises. They want to have their cake and eat it too.
skeptical sorcerer
ReplyDeleteThe doctrine of free will is false. No human being has free will....
"skeptical sorcerer
ReplyDeleteThe doctrine of free will is false. No human being has free will..."
What do you mean? This sounds very interesting...I need details.
Clos,
It's amazing how people will try and justify every aspect of their belief system despite the fact that much of it contradicts each other.
The idea that God does what He wants, and that what He does is true and right because He does it, is foundational to the understanding of everything in Scripture, including the doctrine of election.
ReplyDeleteIn the broad sense, election refers to the fact that God chooses (or elects) to do everything that He does in whatever way He best sees fit. When He acts, He does so only because He willfully and independently chooses to act. According to His own nature, predetermined plan, and good pleasure, He decides to do whatever He desires, without pressure or constraint from any outside influence.
The Bible makes this point repeatedly. In the very act of creation, God created precisely what He wanted to create in the way He wanted to create it (cf. Gen. 1:31). And ever since the creation, He has sovereignly prescribed or permitted everything in human history, in order that He might accomplish the redemptive plan which He had previously designed.
So God in his sovereignity chooses to save whom He will and those he has not chosen will not be saved. No one chooses God. All those who are saved are saved because God has called them, not the other way round. To say created beings like us have the ability to choose where we spend eternity is false and decieving. There is no such thing as free will. The thing is we do not know who is chosen or who is not, only God knows. I do not know if you are elect or not, that is why I have to preach the gospel to all people, because God has chosen the means of the gospel to save his elect. The gospel is that Jesus died for sins of humanity, so everyone must repent and believe. Those who are called will believe this message, but those who are not called will reject this message untill the day they die. If humans have free will i'm afraid that free will is very limited, as we have not got the capacity to determine our eternal destination...As for Christians who say we have free will, they do not understand or know who God is...
That's very interesting, so then people like Ray are wasting their time trying to convert people because if a person is meant to be converted it will happen automatically as apart of god's will?
ReplyDeleteNot at all, Evangelists do not waste their time because God has chosen the means of the Gospel to save His elect. If the Elect had an 'E' stamped on their foreheads, thats would make a lot of things easier for evangelists....
ReplyDeletewhat happens to the elect who do not hear the gospel?
ReplyDeletethey are simply not elect then....
ReplyDeleteSo then a person's salvation depend on two things, one if they are elect and two if they hear the gospel, but god makes sure the elect hear the gospel?
ReplyDeleteYou got it!
ReplyDeleteI don't think I've ever heard Christianity explained that way before, thanks for sharing your beliefs :-)
ReplyDeleteMy only other question would be why would god elect some to be saved and not others?
Ray just posted the following comment concerning the Nicolas Egelin crash:
ReplyDeleteChis...I must be missing something. What has this got to do with a rebellious, drunken fornicator, speeding in the fast lane at 2:00 AM?
Egelin was a mixed martial arts fighter and I have been following the story for an MMA publication that I write for. In researching the crash, I found that the only conclusion the California Highway Patrol has came to was that the vehicle was traveling at a high rate of speed. They will not know if alcohol played a part in the accident for a few weeks. While Egelin seems to be at fault in the crash, I find it pathetic that Ray would attempt to vilify the kid with unfounded assertions in order to further his cause.
Mike
The fact that some sinners are not elected to salvation is no proof that God's attitude toward them is utterly devoid of sincere love. We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. The fact that God lets sinners live shows that He is a compassionate God. God himself says he is fair and just. As to why He chose to save some and leave others is not known. I do not know because does not tell us. If we knew that then we would be God. Yet I am okay with that even though my human mind can not fully understand or comprehend that. You see because He is God, he has revealed what He wants us to know and some things He has chosen not to tell us. Having said that we have all we need to know about Him.
ReplyDeleteJean,
ReplyDeleteFor me personally I have a hard time rationalizing how a god could be loving and condemn the unsaved to suffer in hell for eternity. I also don't see how making some people born to be saved and others born to not be saved could be a policy of a fair god. For me I could only worship a god I had proof of it's existence and proof that s/he was loving, compassionate, etc.
Mike,
Time and time again Ray has proven to be judgmental and all around mean. This is just further proof of that. Did Ray even know Egelin? I hope his grieving family doesn't read about Ray calling him a "rebellious, drunken fornicator". Does Ray even think before he types? What an idiot.
Jean said:
ReplyDelete"The fact that some sinners are not elected to salvation is no proof that God's attitude toward them is utterly devoid of sincere love."
Maybe I misunderstood you, but you said some are elect and others aren't, those that are elect are so because they heard the gospel and believe it; hence the job of the evangelist. However, you also said that we don't have free-will. If this is the case, would we actually be free to decide whether we accept the gospel or not? If it is known prior to our birth and our decision is pre-ordained, you may as well not evangelize because it doesn't matter.
"We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners."
I have read the Bible and would not characterize the God of the OT as any of these-particularly if he is willy-nilly punishing random people who have no free-will. You are essentially saying (if you maintain determinism) that he created most people to burn in hell. Sounds like a good being to me!
"The fact that God lets sinners live shows that He is a compassionate God."
How charming. Sounds like a serf addressing the magistrate.
"God himself says he is fair and just."
Argument from authority; you know, we should be able to judge character by actions and the logic behind certain decisions...
"As to why He chose to save some and leave others is not known. I do not know because does not tell us. If we knew that then we would be God."
If you knew the reason behind why your parents say "because I said so" would that turn you into your parents??? Why should information be kept from us?
"Yet I am okay with that even though my human mind can not fully understand or comprehend that. You see because He is God, he has revealed what He wants us to know and some things He has chosen not to tell us. Having said that we have all we need to know about Him."
Which "Him"? There are thousands of potentially correct gods that humans have invented. I haven't received anything "revealed". What we have is a compilation of self-contradictory accounts of hearsay upon hearsay upon nonsense. You are telling me that the best way to "spread the word" is through an account of a sacrifice in primative palestine 2,000 years ago in which the story hasn't permeated the world TO THIS DAY?? This is to be our redemption??? I'm sorry, but I think we need to give ourselves a little more respect than that. The crucifixion story is immoral and solves nothing-it doesn't even make any sense if you actually think about it. SS, you are more patient than I am, this is really sad in my opinion that people still hold this as "true".
"SS, you are more patient than I am, this is really sad in my opinion that people still hold this as "true"."
ReplyDeleteI'm sure I'd be alot less patient if I had as many responsibilities as you, I don't know how you find time for it all. You also rebutted more of Jean's argument than I did. I just started my summer holidays so I'm in full blown summer mode (a.k.a lazy mode lol).
All,
ReplyDeleteJean is a parody. A perfect example of Poe's Law.
She argues for the most absurd interpretations of the bible. This concept of Election and her defense of slavery can only mean that she is either crazy, or a parody.
And here is a supposed black woman speaking in defense of slavery and subjugation of women.
ReplyDeleteI think (s)he is having quite a lot of fun with you guys.