She said, "I am just fed up! I am fed up with being pushed around." She spat out "Why did God allow the Nazi holocaust!" I explained that Hitler, not God caused the slaughter of the Jews, and that happened because of the evil heart of mankind.Ray has informed us that God did not cause the Nazi Holocaust in response to a woman's question of why God allowed the Nazi Holocaust. Apparently only Hitler was responsible. Ray's position is that God is not responsible for the Holocaust which killed millions of Jews.
Even if this is the case, which I don't think God not causing the Holocaust resolves him allowing it to occur, what of the fate which awaits those Jews who did not not accept Jesus and denied him as the Savior? And of the other non-Christians exterminated in it? After that miserable life and death, they are sent to Hell. Is God not responsible for Hell either?
Not to belittle in any way the horror of the Holocaust, but Hell is, by the definition offered by its proponents, infinitely worse than anything that could occur here in this life. God will allow Hell to occur for all eternity. I suppose, though, that Ray's response to this would be the same: it's not God who caused them to be in Hell, it's themselves. Or perhaps, it's Satan who is torturing them in Hell, therefore he, not God, is responsible.
I said that I didn’t know why God allows certain things, but that we all have sin in our hearts and we need His mercy.While you may claim not to know why God doesn't allow certain things, you do claim to know why God does allow certain other things, such as Hell. He allows Hell for those people who were unconvinced that Jesus was God or a Savior or anything along those lines. He allows Hell for those people who were killed before they may have converted to Christianity.
Hitler killed the Jews for (among a number of reasons) because they were Jews -- they didn't believe that Jesus was the Savior. And now God is going to cast them forthwith into Hell because they were Jews as well -- they didn't believe that Jesus was the Savior?
What a miserable deity. He not only allows the Holocaust to happen, but he then allows an infinitely worse, eternal Holocaust to happen to those same people. And God is any less responsible for either the Holocaust or Hell because he merely didn't cause it but nonetheless allows it?
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Excellent points. Also according to the bible, Hitler, a believer of Jebus, will enjoy paradise in heaven. The rest of Ray's story seems a little bullshitty to me too. I think the woman he talked about was mentally ill and Ray took advantage of that.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if I'm making unfounded assumptions here or not; but an angry 70yr old lady pushing a shopping cart full of plastic bottles around L.A sounds a lot like a homeless/income supported person with mental health issues to me.
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of people who fit that general description near where I live and, rest assured, the last thing they need is some egotistical prick on a bike with a camcorder, pestering them with questions about their eternal salvation. And then to use her personal story as ammunition on his blog to show how loving and generous the Real Christians(TM) are (and how 'sweet' their god can be if only you worship him unconditionally) is so low that I can scarcely believe that I ever expected anything better from Ray Comfort. Never again.
Really, is a little altriusm too much to ask for?
ReplyDeleteYou know, the help without the strings attached.
I forgot to mention, my comment was directed to Ray of course.
ReplyDeleteDiscomforting,
ReplyDeleteAs I said in my post above, I think Ray and his minions, and all fundys for that matter are just making excuses for their deity. They can't square that circle about why these things happen so they just trot out a bunch of excuses for him.
I was reading the post you refer to. Isn't there a chance that an old woman pushing around a shopping cart full of plastic bottles might be homeless, might be mentally ill?
ReplyDeleteAnd I also have my doubts about the veracity of this story. I suppose I'd have to check out the third season of his TV show to find out.
And the phrase "one of our Academies". Is that an academy the same way that clown college is college?
Ranting: It is too much to ask. I don't think they could preform a charitable act with out all the religious bullshit. I don't do a lot, but when I do. I don't ask if someone if they're a good person. It's enough for me that they're a person.
Don't forget what Pastor Hagee had to say about the holocaust:
ReplyDelete"Then God sent a hunter. A hunter is someone with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. And the Bible says - Jeremiah writing ? 'They shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and from the holes of the rocks,' meaning there's no place to hide. And that might be offensive to some people but don't let your heart be offended. I didn't write it, Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel."
That Hagee quote is an excellent example of how fundies will justify murder to bring back jesus.
ReplyDeleteMilo, I didn't know Hagee had said that. And people STILL send these preachers money !!!!!
ReplyDeleteWhat i thought was funny about that Hagee quote and McCain, and Obama and his nutcase Wright was that Wright didn't back down from his comments. he stood by them.
ReplyDeleteHagee, before the "hunters" remark came up, "apologized" for his anti-Catholic remarks, to try to save face for McCain. I never bought the apology in the first place. Hagee had been preaching that shit for years. He didn't change just like that. And I bet he was pissed about it after McCain cut him loose.
Hagee seemed to have done the same thing with his Katrina remarks.
ReplyDeleteYou know what's crazy about this post. Ray basically says that man caused the holocaust, which is fine, ok.
ReplyDeletebut....
If you turn your bibles to the book of Joshua, you'll find that God directed the Hebrews into the land of cannan. Once there they defeated the armies, then headed for the towns where they systematically slaughtered evey last (innocent) man, women, child and beast. They essentially commited a genocide on an entire group of people, not because there was anything wrong with them per sa', but because it was they're promised land.
As for the slaughter, well, they will say that maybe this, maybe that, like maybe they were already so evil, or maybe they were beyond repair, and so on.
ReplyDeleteIf so, why this is not explicitly explained in the bible? Why do you have to find a "good reason" yourself?
Such a shitty belief system, truly.
G.E.
"As for the slaughter, well, they will say that maybe this, maybe that, like maybe they were already so evil, or maybe they were beyond repair, and so on."
ReplyDeleteWhen I ask Christians this the common response is "why do you think they (people god kills/ allows to be killed) were innocent?" (i.e it can't be murder if guilty people are killed). I guess the idea is since we all inherit sin, we are all guilty so god has the right to knock us off (children included) whenever he pleases. Just and loving god indeed.