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Wednesday, December 17, 2008

Another massive Presupositionalist thread!!

We all know the monster of argumentation that is Christian presuppositionalism. This thread is over a thousand posts.
If you don't want to read it, the participants were kind enough to summarise their positions in verse and rhyme.

Sye TenB:

The atheist claims he can know
But when asked how this is so
His response is so dense
For he claims 'reason and sense'
Whose validity he cannot show.
Dani' El
Sye was a saint who was true
Who said to the blind "We see blue"
They presupposed no one could
Since to see was not good
As it came from a Bible worldview


Andrew Louis
There once was a man named Sye
Who was really an irrational guy
He began with proof
Was withdraw and aloof
And it turned out it all was a big lie

Type Display Name Here
Sye once had a delusion,
He wanted to spread his confusion,
He posted a lot,
but his claims were shot,
'Cos the premise contained the conclusion.
zilch
There once was a Christian named Sye
Who fought for his Guy in the Sky
But the godless were bored, 'cause
his Sword of the Lord was
a presuppositional lie.

33 comments:

  1. Breaking out in verse is perhaps half a step short of speaking in tongues...

    I'm beginning to think all this presuppositional bullshit is just an elaborate trap to cause indignant thinking people to end up frustrating themselves to death.

    ReplyDelete
  2. For the life of me, I cannot understand how we become so trapped/ beguiled into arguing this.

    For the most part the novelty of the Pressup argument wore off fairly quickly for me, and after following the Steven Law and the Maragon threads it seemed like all that could be said, was said.

    To be fair, for those that like to get into a stimulating, many faceted philisophical argument, presupp is the way to go!

    It seems that "they" have an argument that turns out to be indeterminate, at best, yet they always claim "they won."

    ReplyDelete
  3. They are trolls, plain and simple. They never clarify their own stance nor do they back it up. Instead they continue in their "I know you are but what am I" form ad infinitum. Not worth discussing with because even when you show them the errors of their way they just keep going back to it.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Sye tries to argue
    Using presupp mindlessness
    Shame is his reward

    ReplyDelete
  5. It is quite funny to a degree.
    A week ago blogger Dan didn't have a clue what presuup was, yet now he reponds to every question or statement, "Where do you get the absolute standard of reasoning from which you level the claim of....."

    I think it is just another trick in their bag of obfuscation and sophism.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Froggie,

    Dan didn't have a clue what presuup was, yet now he reponds to every question or statement, "Where do you get the absolute standard of reasoning from which you level the claim of....."

    Whereas Dani'El at least aims for a certain level of consistency and his posts even contain a degree of what you might call charm, Dan just rabbits on and on and on, continually changing faces. I feel like I'm talking to a chatbot sometimes.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Those thousand post threads arguing presuppositionalism are nothing more than colossal circle-jerks, without any resultant ejaculation.

    Nothing can, or ever will come of them.


    word ver = geton

    ReplyDelete
  8. Zilch pwned that thread

    (Sorry Nonmagic'El)

    ---

    Adopting logic,
    Sye invalidates his own
    system of belief

    ---

    Presupp by itself is crafted very well. At its core, it makes an interesting point: presupposition (of any thing) is presupposition. It takes some effort to reveal the logical inconsistencies, in regards to specific presuppositions.

    However, the real reason the thread lasted that long was Sye's dishonesty, not the thing he was trying to be a proponent of.

    ReplyDelete
  9. So, first we're required to show
    how we know that we know what we know,
    and have to have proved,
    without proof, proof's approved
    to prove knowing that... limericks blow.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I am telling you it is just "I know you are but what am I"

    ReplyDelete
  11. It's a debate that never ends,
    It just goes on and on, my friends,
    Some people started fighting it
    Not knowing what it was,
    And Sye continues fighting it
    Forever, just because...

    It's a debate that never ends,
    It just goes on and on, my friends,
    Some people started fighting it
    Not knowing what it was,
    And Sye continues fighting it
    Forever, just because...

    It's a debate that never ends,
    It just goes on and on, my friends,
    Some people started fighting it
    Not knowing what it was,
    And Sye continues fighting it
    Forever, just because...

    It's a debate that never ends,
    It just goes on and on, my friends,
    Some people started fighting it
    Not knowing what it was,
    And Sye continues fighting it
    Forever, just because...

    It's a debate that never ends,
    It just goes on and on, my friends,
    Some people started fighting it
    Not knowing what it was,
    And Sye continues fighting it
    Forever, just because...

    ReplyDelete
  12. Frodo,

    "Whereas Dani'El at least aims for a certain level of consistency...."

    Amen to that!

    I almost wanna throw my laptop through the window when someone makes a very articulate point and Dan responds, "Irellevent!" or Ad Hom!

    He's not fooling anybody but himself.

    While I'm at it, I've become quite adept at interpreting body language over the years and it is very interesting to me that Dan portrays himself in his pic as this cowering, fearful wimpass cluting a bible.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Shaggy,

    Sung to the tune of "Welcome Back my friends to the show that never ends" by Emerson, Lake and Palmer?

    Album-
    "Brain Salad Surgery" One of my all time favs

    Another song from that album I love "Paradise" or Rockin in Paradise"

    That should be our anthem here.

    ReplyDelete
  14. They wrote "Paradise" right after the city tore down the old Paradise Theater in Chicago-
    ancient history, and yes, I was there.

    ReplyDelete
  15. "Benny the Bouncer" same album great beat.
    Benny was a bouncer at the palace of dance
    He'd slash your granny's face up
    given half of a chance......

    ReplyDelete
  16. I love the limericks and the haiku, but El Shaggy wins hands down with "The Debate That Never Ends". I thought to offer my own entry until I saw that, and drew unnecessary attention to myself by laughing uncontrollably.

    Dick.

    --
    Stan

    (Word verification: unduals)

    ReplyDelete
  17. Froggie wrote Album-
    "Brain Salad Surgery" One of my all time favs


    /high_five

    ReplyDelete
  18. I've never really put my 2 cents in about presup before but now I feel the need:

    It's bullshit.

    Froggie sez:

    For the life of me, I cannot understand how we become so trapped/ beguiled into arguing this.

    I've never understood why anyone entertained Sye. I think of it as stroking his ego and giving him a mental jerk off by giving him attention. I just can't do it.

    No offense to those who do though. We all aren't interested in the same kids of debates, yanno?

    But presup goes nowhere over and over and over again.


    Froggie also sez:

    It is quite funny to a degree.
    A week ago blogger Dan didn't have a clue what presuup was, yet now he reponds to every question or statement, "Where do you get the absolute standard of reasoning from which you level the claim of....."


    I think people like Dan have no idea who they really are inside, so they mold to the alpha of the group and/or the most complex sounding idea they can find, even if they have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

    ReplyDelete
  19. BF sez:

    Those thousand post threads arguing presuppositionalism are nothing more than colossal circle-jerks, without any resultant ejaculation.

    Nothing can, or ever will come of them.


    YES. Exactly.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Froggie sez:

    While I'm at it, I've become quite adept at interpreting body language over the years and it is very interesting to me that Dan portrays himself in his pic as this cowering, fearful wimpass cluting a bible.

    You noticed that too, huh? Yeah, I think that pic sums it all up.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Shaggy, that poem was fantastic!

    All the poetry/haiku/limerick stuff in this thread is great.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Karn Evil 9, 1st Impression, Part 2


    Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends
    We're so glad you could attend
    Come inside! Come inside!
    There behind a glass is a real blade of grass
    be careful as you pass.
    Move along! Move along!

    Come inside, the show's about to start
    guaranteed to blow your head apart
    Rest assured you'll get your money's worth
    The greatest show in Heaven, Hell or Earth.
    You've got to see the show, it's a dynamo.
    You've got to see the show, it's rock and roll ....

    Right before your eyes we pull laughter from the skies
    And he laughs until he cries then he dies then he dies


    Keith Emerson' work, at its best, is comparable to virtually anything produced by Baroque composers.

    ReplyDelete
  23. I was such a huge fan in highschool and college. I haave to say, however...

    I went to see them live at Great Woods here in MA, before the Lollapalooza show in which the concert-goers ripped down and burned the fences in a great Lord Of The Flies orgy of excess

    Heh - a bit of memorabilia for those who know what I'm talking about.

    Back on topic, I saw them when they released the album with Mars, God of War on it. This group was, unfortunately, Emerson Lake and Powell - not the power trio I had grown up on.

    As much as I liked Cozy Powell's drumming, he was a bit too "rock and roll" to to replace Carl Palmer. He didn't blend in well, and the show wasn't that great. It was disappointing.

    On the subject of drums, Buddy Rich once went to see Carl Palmer live in concert with ELP, and walked out of the show after 20 minutes. Couldn't understand the huge drumset and the guy not knowing how to use it

    :)

    ReplyDelete
  24. maybe we could create a perpetuum mobile using presuppositionalism?

    ReplyDelete
  25. Nonmagic'el wrote I think people like Dan have no idea who they really are inside, so they mold to the alpha of the group and/or the most complex sounding idea they can find, even if they have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

    That could be true; I just have a hard time understanding how a person could not know themselves (though I've seen it before)

    I've always suspected such people are self-loathers; they know who they are, and don't like it.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Presuppositions
    The new apologetics
    Just faith in disguise

    ReplyDelete
  27. Type Display Name Here's "the premise contained the conclusion" limerick is probably the best because it points out what's wrong with Sye's way of thinking.

    The thousand post thread is filled with weird (non-presup) stuff.
    Like a young teenage girl will debate Sye on radio if he donates money to an atheist foundation.
    Sye says he'll mail his wallet to a guy who said he is homeless (TDNH). But Sye backs out when TDNH wouldn't give Sye his home phone number. (?!)

    ReplyDelete
  28. Froggie,

    While I'm at it, I've become quite adept at interpreting body language over the years and it is very interesting to me that Dan portrays himself in his pic as this cowering, fearful wimpass cluting a bible.

    Ad hom!

    Hahaha. I completely lost all respect for him when he admitted to me that he "wore his circular logic like a halo" and that there was nothing wrong with that. I think at that point you have to realize you've done all you can do, and just hope people reading the comments think "yikes, I don't wanna be that guy."

    ReplyDelete
  29. My point in continuing to post there is to do one of several things:

    1) To get Dan to realize that if he's going to justify being illogical, he should be consistent about it. Have him stop trying to make logical arguments (regardless of whether they fail or succeed), and admit that his faith is the only thing that matters

    2) Understand that if he can justify being illogical, then to the people he's trying to convince, he's going to appear indistinguishable from a crazy person. Thus, he will be extremely unsuccessful

    ReplyDelete
  30. Wem,

    he's going to appear indistinguishable from a crazy person

    I'll get the popcorn.

    ReplyDelete
  31. ....he's going to appear indistinguishable from a crazy person.

    I can't tell his blog from something the schizo homeless guy on the corner would write anyway. I don't know how much more insane Dan could possibly get.

    Bet we'll find out, though!

    ReplyDelete

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