This is from Ray's latest straw man post. I have no idea what he's getting at. Can anyone help me out?
"God’s existence isn’t dependent on the Bible or its authenticity, the existence of the Church, the prophets, or even creation. God existed before the Scriptures were penned, before creation came into existence. Even if the Bible was proved to be fraudulent, God would still exist."
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I suppose that my question to him would be, "how do you know that, Ray?"
ReplyDeleteFunny how there was no 'before' creation. Empirically and logically false.
ReplyDeleteRay just disproved God.
This is the kind of statement that I expect Ray to edit. It makes no sense coming from.
ReplyDeleteHum,
ReplyDeleteSome threads before I had a discussion with jrk83 about the bible being an idol ... but no, I do not think Ray would go that way. I suppose he will edit this at some point. Probably he wants one of us to take this to say something he wants for the next post. He did that once, seeding me for something, but I gave him a different answer than he expected ... he still tried to twist my post for what he wanted. Maybe this is the same kinda thing. Though I cannot guess this time what he pretends us to say.
G.E.
In the comments Atheists Know Everything said something like were all you "atheists" raised catholic? I was tempted to respond, but I didn't.
ReplyDeleteGE wrote I had a discussion with jrk83 about the bible being an idol ... but no, I do not think Ray would go that way.
ReplyDeleteActually, I *do* believe that's what he was trying to get at, in his twisted little way.
God exists independently of the Bible (according to Ray), so one shouldn't get too caught up in trying to understand every word.
Uncharacteristically, this really does appear to be a bit of religious wisdom from Mr. Comfort. Of course, if I believed this, I would have to admit that he's probably contradicted his earler writings with it.
It's the nature of the fundamentalist religious mind (imho) that many contradictory thoughts occupy that same little lump of gray matter. They're all kept in check by Faith: the belief that contradiction is merely an indication that you lack understanding.
Thus, Ray will happily contradict himself. While it's fuel for another book, it simply confirms his belief that he's studying the "right book".
Sounds like backtracking to me. Perhaps the rational onslaught is working.
ReplyDeleteActually I thought his latest post had one of his sanest bits of reasoning yet:
ReplyDelete"Was the recovery a miracle? Perhaps. Then again, perhaps it wasn’t. Only God knows. The fact is that we have no idea what happened. However, one thing we do know is that answered or unanswered prayer has nothing to do with God’s existence." [emphasis added]
Ray is absolutely right. Prayer has nothing to do with God's existence. It seems at first as if he's finally given up pretending to know everything vicariously through God. Until he draws entirely the wrong conclusion:
"Neither does God’s existence have anything to do with the fact that there are those who have experienced miracles, seen visions, or supposedly heard His voice. The sun doesn’t exist because we see its light, or because we feel its warmth. Its existence has nothing to do with any human testimony. Nor does it cease to exist because a blind man is not aware of its reality, or because it becomes cloudy, or the night falls. The sun exists, period." [emphasis added itself... wait, what?]
It's all well and good to speak of objective existence, but what makes us as observant humans aware of said existence is evidence. So when Ray asserts that God would still exist should all that is mentioned in Rufus' post come to pass, he's admitted that he's impervious to evidence either way. Long after the rest of the world had given up on religion, Ray would still be there believing, even as his shoelaces were removed and he was led into his padded cell.
Ray seems to be making the argument I would make: If there is a God his existence does not depend on the bible or miracles or prayers. Therefore stop demanding that the earth must be only a few thousand years old and evolution is untrue. In fact I think he once wrote that if Adam and Eve did not literally exist in the Garden of Eden then Jesus wasn't telling the truth and wasn't the son of God. Why the about face? Is it a trick? Is Ray ready to admit he was wrong? It must be the end times!
ReplyDelete"God’s existence isn’t dependent on the Bible or its authenticity, the existence of the Church, the prophets, or even creation. God existed before the Scriptures were penned, before creation came into existence. Even if the Bible was proved to be fraudulent, God would still exist."
ReplyDeleteI think Ray is basically right with this statement.
The problem is when he anthropomorphizes God to the point where the bible and the church have divine authority from God.
Unfortunately, this turns God into the nasty old man down the block who says "If you don't get off my lawn and worship me, I'll send a couple of bears to tear you to shreds, and don't even think about touching those pretty breasts or penises!"
Seldom mentioned, but what I feel was one of the biblical God's most horrific acts - killing all the first-born in Egypt. Oh, the humanity, and those poor, cute little cows and lambs!