Really, why is it that Ray, et. al. are so invested in "disproving" the Theory of Evolution? I think it was ethan who recently said that if evolution were true, then all is meaningless and he'd have no other choice but to go out, burn down a Starbucks, rape his dog, and then set himself on fire. Well, he didn't use exactly those words, but the general idea is that if we human beings are related to the rest of life on this planet, then we're no longer special and there are no moral standards.
Is that what it comes down to -- if we're related to chimps then life is meaningless? Would the fundies have no other foundation for their faith if they ever accepted the powerful explanatory power of common descent and modification by natural selection?
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Here's a hypothesis.
ReplyDeleteReligion evolved because its socially efficient to a large extent.
If I don't care how things work and just do whatever it is I am specialised in, I am most likely going to be more productive.
Rather than being distracted I will simply say "Goddidit".
This then transfers to philosophical questions as well. Why worry about existentialism, nihilism etc. when its more efficient to simply not think about it and say praise be to Allah.
It is entirely plausible that various civilisations as a whole could have benefited from a certain proportion of non-critical efficient workers.
This is nothing new, Seneca the Younger is attributed with:
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful."
and of course Karl Marx's opiate of the masses is often quoted.
But isn't it true? Ray could go lusting after all the women (and men) , covet everyone else's stuff and blaspheme all he wanted if he did not have to reckon with God's law.
ReplyDeleteAssuming the modest interpretation of your verbs, yes that's true. He might not be successful or socially accepted, but he'd have the right.
ReplyDeleteMrFreeThinker said...
ReplyDelete"Ray could go lusting after all the women (and men) , covet everyone else's stuff and blaspheme all he wanted if he did not have to reckon with God's law."
Not could, can. Can you give any reason at all why Ray shouldn't lust after anyone he wants to? In fact, isn't part of Ray's whole "Good Person Test(TM)" that everyone does precisely that? Or is that just rhetoric to ensute that everyone fails the test and thus can be persuaded to drink the KoolAid?
Thought crimes cannot ever be policed because your thoughts are not under your conscious control; you can stop yourself from continuing down a line of thought (and thus standing staring at someone whilst drooling), but the thought itself must be present for you to control it, like the infamous thought experiment of not thinking about an elephant. You can't help it - as soon as you read the word your brain recalled the associations that you have with that label, which may include happy memories of a visit to the zoo or casual speculation about the current black market price of ivory, but either way you thought of an elephant because you couldn't not do it.
The problem MFT is that you wold not be able to survive in a society of you were to be like that (all a mess). This is where your argument fails.
ReplyDeleteWell, not just there. It also fails because if religions were useful, because of the moral implications of a lack of religion, that still does not make them true. This is where your argument truly fails forever more.
G.E.
Ups sorry, I had not pay enough attention to see that MFT's "crimes" were thought crimes (two of them), and no crime whatsoever (blasphemy).
ReplyDeleteSorry MFT. I thought you were talking, again, about the killing and such.
G.E.
I can't understand why evolution holds such a special revulsion for the fundamentalist Christians. There are so many other reasons not to believe in their god that evolution hardly rates.
ReplyDeletePretty much any field of science contradicts the literalist interpretation of the bible that fundamentalists of Ray's ilk subscribe to.
Cosmology and geology are so utterly damning of young earth creationism. The universe of the fundamentalist Christian bible is a small and shabby thing compared to the majestic reality that scientific observation has unveiled.
I suspect that evolution is a particular bugbear because it relegates humans to just another class of animals and takes away our special status as god's chosen.
For the sake of Ethan's dog, I'm gonna hafta start trying to disprove evolution...
ReplyDelete---
Meh - he simply betrayed his helplessness without his book. His belief system and ego are so fragile, one tiny crack would result in psychological dissociation.
Of course, being neck deep in the fundamentalism, he's unable to understand that it's the fundamentalism itself that causes this fragility. He might actually be stronger, faster, & more intelligent without it...
Alphgeek said...
ReplyDelete"I suspect that evolution is a particular bugbear because it relegates humans to just another class of animals and takes away our special status as god's chosen."
Yes. That's why they always frame it as "monkey to man". Common ancester with apes is way to nuanced.
Another might be, if book 1 capter 1, verse 1 is bogus that shoots the inerrancy all to hell.
One more. Evolution has a distinct, identifiable boogyman to point to, Darwin. Darwinist. Darwinism.
Pretty much any field of science contradicts the literalist interpretation of the bible that fundamentalists of Ray's ilk subscribe to.
ReplyDeleteWell, they put all in the same package. They talk about all of the history of the universe, then they say "what did i describe?" "evolution" answers the audience.
This is why when they want to "debunk" evolution they say "how could have something come from nothing?"
G.E.
"He might actually be stronger, faster, & more intelligent without it..."
ReplyDeleteWe can rebuild him, we have the technology. We can call him Steve Austin, and make him a colonel.
I just found this blog. I love it. How can I participate?! There is nothing more fun than hanging out with clever people with something to say!!
ReplyDeleteMFT:
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you so certain that Ray doesn't lust and covet? Because he says so? He lies, and he says he doesn't do that.
"One more. Evolution has a distinct, identifiable boogyman to point to, Darwin. Darwinist. Darwinism."
ReplyDeleteRight, and I am told we worship Mr. Darwin (well, some atheists appear to). The theist pretends to mistake admiration with worship. We are free to acknowledge that Darwin was wrong in some areas, and clearly fallible in some of what he wrote-or at least didn't possess the knowledge we do now. Same goes for scripture...why can't theists read the bible honestly and recognize the provincial nature of it?
Evolution represents several threats. First, it isn't found in the Bible, and this terrifies theists...in fact, the creation account is wrong. Do you think that they would have a problem with evolution had the bible described the process?? Hell no. Second, if nature is capable of making us...what role does god have? Third, evolution represents change-something that absolute, unalterable truth is uncomfortable with. Fourth, these people go out of their way to avoid the evidence.
"I just found this blog. I love it. How can I participate?! There is nothing more fun than hanging out with clever people with something to say!!"
ReplyDeleteFlattery will get you nowhere....except here. Welcome!
Hugh said...
ReplyDelete"I just found this blog. I love it. How can I participate?!"
Not to point out the obvious or anything, but you are doing. All are free to join in, but if you want to actually post then contact MacGyver Jr and he'll sort you out.
Oh, yeah, and welcome.
Even if the fundie argument were true, and that life without god were meaningless, that wouldn't be evidence for the existence of god. It's as if I were to deny that it was raining -- no matter what the evidence -- because if it's raining then I can't go on the picnic which I so want to go on.
ReplyDeleteI've pointed out to Mr. Comfort of several past occasions that saying so don't make it so, or that wishing it were so don't make it so, but Ray has not deigned to answer. Alas!
Glad someone picked up on that, Ben :)
ReplyDeleteI don't see the Catholics going Jonestown. Apparently they're at least clever enough to keep Jesus around even if they're just another animal species. We're still the chosen species, with all those nifty abilities that are 'unexplainable'. They're really not unexplainable, but at least they've compartmentalized their ophing dumbosity zone a bit.
ReplyDeleteThe universe of the fundamentalist Christian bible is a small and shabby thing
ReplyDeleteThat's the point; that's what they want. The big picture frightens them.
I actually think that for some people, religion is analagous to a drug addiction. Not so much in a "desire to believe" kind of way - but that the drug fuels the need for the drug, if that makes sense.
ReplyDeleteIt's obvious that some people are afraid at the prospect of their belief system collapsing (or being faulty), but this fear is created by the belief system itself.
I personally have a very difficult time trusting ANYTHING which portray's itself as critical to my survival or well-being. Other people seem to not have this aversion...
And, to some extent, they feed it.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, Reynold.
ReplyDeleteIt reminds of the concept of codependency. It might not be an exact analogue, but it sure seems similar in some ways.
I'm willing to bet that, should a fundamentalist fall away from a specific religion, he/she will gravitate towards others that provide the same kind of emotional support, er, abuse...
I've spent much of my life around addictive personalities. The mental dynamics, even the vocabulary, is the same. Fundamentalism is a form of addiction. I might say the same of all religious belief - but about fundamentalism, there's no question.
ReplyDeleteGet_education said...
ReplyDelete"Ups sorry, I had not pay enough attention to see that MFT's "crimes" were thought crimes (two of them), and no crime whatsoever (blasphemy)."
In a thoecracy, blasphemy is usually a crime punishable by death. I was going to make a post about an issue being discussed at the UN (I can't find it just now) where some Arab countries want to make it international law, or "a strong indication" that blasphemy should not be tolerated.
That is about the silliest and vile things I can think of.
I vote for head explosion:
ReplyDeleteDimensio said...
"Organisms do not 'decide' to change biologically. Your question demonstrates that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of how evolution occurs. If you do not understand evolution, you cannot credibly question the validity of the theory of evolution."
Ray Comfort replied;
"Dimensio . . . What a copout. Just believe. Don't ask questions. I used to believe, until I asked questions."
I have nothing more to add to that.
WTF?
ReplyDeleteJust believe. Don't ask questions. I used to believe, until I asked questions.
Could somebody provide me with a translation from Teh Stupid to English?
Wow - I think *my* head just exploded.
ReplyDelete.
.
.
Yep, I need a mop...
I was thinking about compiling a Stupid to English dictionary, but there were too many dialects.
ReplyDeleteIt's obvious that some people are afraid at the prospect of their belief system collapsing (or being faulty), but this fear is created by the belief system itself.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely.
As I try to explain to fundamentalists, if I found out today that not only was evolution a load of bunk, but that God exists and Jesus died for our sins and all that... ok.
Seriously. I say, "ok".
I just adapt to that. If that's the reality, then that's how things are. So, ok.
Because here's the thing for all of us atheists; we don't base our lives on the theory of evolution, or really, in being "right".
For a fundamentalist, their LIFE is all about being a believer. That's who their friends are. That's their family. Those are their traditions. It's all wrapped up in their belief.
So, for them to be *wrong* means that everything falls apart for them. All of those connections are gone.
They simply *CANNOT* be wrong, because their lives (as they see it) is based on being right about this one very important thing.
This is why I try to avoid theological discussions with the fundamentalists I work with. The issue of "does God exist?" is *FAR* more important to their lives than it is to mine.
In conclusion, if I'm wrong... ok, so I have to adapt to what is correct, no big deal. But if they're wrong, they see their entire lifestyle falling apart.
I'd add that it isn't simply their connections in this life that are jeopardized; it's their hope of continuity in the next. This is so important to them that they are perfectly willing to abandon billions of their fellow human beings, for all of eternity, to a fate too horrible to contemplate, so that they can have the ontological security blanket for a few brief decades.
ReplyDeleteThey can't allow themselves even to consider that they may be wrong - and to shore up the ever present doubt that threatens to overtake them, they find it necessary to remake society in their image. They will never stop; they have an agenda of expansion and assimilation, and are implacable. They are the Borg.
In conclusion, if I'm wrong... ok, so I have to adapt to what is correct, no big deal. But if they're wrong, they see their entire lifestyle falling apart.
ReplyDeleteGreat post, Nohm! I couldn't agree more