tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post7277994040522368478..comments2023-10-29T08:19:51.395-05:00Comments on The Raytractors - Ray Comfort's Detractors: I Feel Ashamed to be an AtheistMacGyver Jrhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02307024564664964571noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-20971150990399836912008-11-17T02:00:00.000-06:002008-11-17T02:00:00.000-06:00Jesus=Human sacrifice.Jesus=Human sacrifice.Jesus Will Savehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625937233504345498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-28249373782330488342008-11-15T21:09:00.000-06:002008-11-15T21:09:00.000-06:00[Also, there is no such thing as black magic...it'...[Also, there is no such thing as black magic...it's all bullshit.]<BR/>Saying witches don't exist because you think magic is BS is like me saying that Muslims don't exist because I think Allah doesn't exist.<BR/><BR/>[Also, asking me to show that humans have intrinsic value really shows the type of person you are. Even to ask such a question reveals that you have no moral fibre. Any decent person recognizes that they do not want o suffer, and so they recognize that others share the same capacity to suffer and thus their feelings are to be valued. This is why we have laws and prisons...to separate all the people who don't feel this way, or don't care. We recognize that lack of regard for other's capacity to suffer, and actions to this effect, necessitate the action of moral people to separate these people from society. No silly superstitions are required. Common sense. Common decency.]<BR/>I recognise that there is such a thing as human dignity and intrinsic value and that these things are objectively meaningful because I recognise an objective standard. All you have given me is a set of arbitrary stipulations. I hope I at least got you to think about how you live inconsistently with your professed views on ethics.Bye!MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-60121921433479338222008-11-15T21:07:00.000-06:002008-11-15T21:07:00.000-06:00[What, Mr Freethinker, is your definition of "burn...[What, Mr Freethinker, is your definition of "burnt-offering"?]<BR/>They can mean offerings in the general sense. Such as when Hannah offered Samuel to god in 1 Samuel.<BR/>And if yu really want to take the burnt-offering literally , I will point out that the Leviticus priests only sacrificed male livestock(Leviticus 22:19) so that girl would have been disqualified on both counts if they waned to sacrifice her.<BR/><BR/>Does it really make sense that the girl would mourn her virginity if she WAS GOING TO DIE?<BR/>Does it make sense that other maids would gather to commemorate her virginity BUT NEVER MENTION HER DEATH?<BR/>Do you think the levitical priests would really sacrifice another human ?MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-34612628690509743962008-11-15T20:08:00.000-06:002008-11-15T20:08:00.000-06:00Mr Freethinker wrote:"Think a bit about of exegesi...<B>Mr Freethinker wrote:</B><BR/><I>"Think a bit about of exegesis. If the girl was REALLY going to be a human sacrifice, why was she weeping about having to remain a virgin for the rest of her life. Why did they gather to commemorate her virginity and not her death?"</I><BR/><BR/>Perhaps because the people of the time considered women good for nothing more than propagating the mens seed.<BR/><BR/>You are making a big deal over 'weeping about her virginity', when the relevant verses are pretty darn explicit:<BR/><BR/><I>31. then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, <B>to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’</B><BR/>....<BR/>39. At the end of two months, she returned to her father, <B>who did with her according to the vow he had made.</B></I><BR/><BR/>What, Mr Freethinker, is your definition of "burnt-offering"?Quasarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04219765882891909223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-29254104056652675402008-11-14T19:35:00.000-06:002008-11-14T19:35:00.000-06:00Actually, Mr. F, he didn't "poison the well", he p...Actually, Mr. F, he didn't "poison the well", he provided the quotes that you continue to duck. "Read it in context!". Right, insightment to genocide, rape, murder, etc. and WE are not reading in context? You, sir, are immoral. You and your god can go to hell if this is what you think is the basis of our morality.Clostridiophilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06242245098663362751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-35103360741998130552008-11-14T19:32:00.000-06:002008-11-14T19:32:00.000-06:00Mr. F,Thanks for the last part. Putting witches o...Mr. F,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the last part. Putting witches on trial? Like in Monty Python? Do we determine witches by their common weight with ducks? Stop telling me to read in context, I can fucking read. Why don't you just admit that the book is fucking evil? Doesn't this "god" recognize that the term "witch" is up for interpretation? Also, there is no such thing as black magic...it's all bullshit. <BR/><BR/>Also, asking me to show that humans have intrinsic value really shows the type of person you are. Even to ask such a question reveals that you have no moral fibre. Any decent person recognizes that they do not want o suffer, and so they recognize that others share the same capacity to suffer and thus their feelings are to be valued. This is why we have laws and prisons...to separate all the people who don't feel this way, or don't care. We recognize that lack of regard for other's capacity to suffer, and actions to this effect, necessitate the action of moral people to separate these people from society. No silly superstitions are required. Common sense. Common decency.Clostridiophilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06242245098663362751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-13723359623694197452008-11-14T19:23:00.000-06:002008-11-14T19:23:00.000-06:00[Clos don't waste your time, he has shown himself ...[Clos don't waste your time, he has shown himself to be a troll. He is dishonest and just here for reactions. I suggest that no one respond to his inanity.]<BR/>I document your errors in exegesis and you respond by poisoning the well.*shrugs*MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-39392060381756356272008-11-14T19:21:00.000-06:002008-11-14T19:21:00.000-06:00[happiness than hate is not an objective statement...[happiness than hate is not an objective statement about human nature]<BR/>Yes it is an objective statement.But first you need to show me using an objective basis that humans have intrinsic value. <BR/><BR/>[cannot say that raping and murdering a child is objectively wrong? ]<BR/>exactly<BR/><BR/>[I'm expecting you to say something about "Hitler's list" or something silly like this. The question then is, how do we come up with laws? Are we supposed to simply roll over to anyone's principles? The answer is no! This is where skepticism and debate come in.]<BR/>Morality can't be stipulated or debated clos.What happens when society decides something like slavery is moral? Or when the people support genocide. Why are Marquis de Sade or Jeffrey obligated to follow these rules? There just conventions people arbitrarily came up with.<BR/><BR/>["Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".<BR/><BR/>How much torture and cruelty has this little phrase caused?] <BR/>I think at we have to do some reading in context here clos. <BR/>"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is not equivalent to "go on a witch hunt.<BR/>There was a judicial system of law in Israel that would judge these practitioners of witchcraft and convict them if enough evidence of their wrongdoing could be found.This is in no way equivalent to a witch hunt.MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-76941819330939648702008-11-14T19:15:00.000-06:002008-11-14T19:15:00.000-06:00Clos don't waste your time, he has shown himself t...Clos don't waste your time, he has shown himself to be a troll. He is dishonest and just here for reactions. I suggest that no one respond to his inanity.BeamStalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17772110446629492132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-42821323355909804082008-11-14T18:15:00.000-06:002008-11-14T18:15:00.000-06:00Question for theists....What moral purpose does th...Question for theists....<BR/><BR/>What moral purpose does the following biblical command serve?<BR/><BR/>"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".<BR/><BR/>How much torture and cruelty has this little phrase caused? Is this part of the "objective morality" that we are supposed to accept as "good"? Need I quote more horrid nonsense from the Bibble?Clostridiophilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06242245098663362751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-13824692130724980212008-11-14T17:59:00.001-06:002008-11-14T17:59:00.001-06:00MFT wrote Is that the "no true humanist" syndrome?...MFT wrote <I>Is that the "no true humanist" syndrome?</I><BR/><BR/>To be fair, none of the people listed exhibited or proposed humanistic values.Whatevermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14458601080799278850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-64253464830554067422008-11-14T17:59:00.000-06:002008-11-14T17:59:00.000-06:00Morality is an intersubjective construct with the ...Morality is an intersubjective construct with the end goal being an objective means by which to measure and evaluate the value of our works and behavior as it benefits ourselves and society as a whole.Debunkey Monkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15355896606457674317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-73232248622777450312008-11-14T17:53:00.000-06:002008-11-14T17:53:00.000-06:00@Mr. F,"What I was claiming is that atheists have ...@Mr. F,<BR/><BR/>"What I was claiming is that atheists have no basis for objective morality. I wasn't dragging the bible in."<BR/><BR/>Please. Anyone who makes a statement such as this....after claiming the bible is a "good book" is claiming the bible is a basis of moral absolutes. So you are telling me that the statement that love is more conducive to happiness than hate is not an objective statement about human nature? You mean that I, as a human that doesn't believe in god, cannot say that raping and murdering a child is objectively wrong? <BR/><BR/>Let's say, as a fit of collective amnesia, we had lost all our knowledge and had to start over. At what point would we have to remind ourselves of the ten commandments? If we had never heard of these...how hard would it be for us to come to the conclusion that murder, theft, (rape isn't included...because it is soon to be positively recommended in the Bible), and love of one's kin are positive moral principles? What about silly nonsense like "the sabbath"? What about stupid pronouncements like not to covet? Thoughtcrime? Not to mention that the commandments say nothing about though shalt not abuse children....though shalt not enslave...wouldn't these be part of any sane person's list? <BR/><BR/>I'm expecting you to say something about "Hitler's list" or something silly like this. The question then is, how do we come up with laws? Are we supposed to simply roll over to anyone's principles? The answer is no! This is where skepticism and debate come in. <BR/><BR/>Remember, if humans inspired and wrote the Bible, which is almost certainly the case, then this is not an objective, absolute source of morals...it is just one of many attempts by us.Clostridiophilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06242245098663362751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-77003673132691747382008-11-14T16:04:00.000-06:002008-11-14T16:04:00.000-06:00@MFT:You mean applications of this outside of Chri...@MFT:<BR/><BR/><I>You mean applications of this outside of Christian belief?</I><BR/><BR/>Inside Christian belief, outside Christian belief, whatever.<BR/><BR/>Would you please give a few examples of "ways of knowing stuff outside of evidence", and how these ways worked to accomplish something?Nohmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04810408271483617763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-75281540996418989882008-11-14T15:55:00.000-06:002008-11-14T15:55:00.000-06:00@BeamstalkThink a bit about of exegesis. If the gi...@Beamstalk<BR/>Think a bit about of exegesis. If the girl was REALLY going to be a human sacrifice, why was she weeping about having to remain a virgin for the rest of her life. Why did they gather to commemorate her virginity and not her death? Perhaps because she was not actually killed. She was dedicated unto the Lord as an offering just as Hannah dedicated her son in 1 Samuel.<BR/>Your interpretation makes no sense.<BR/><BR/>[Would you please give a few examples of these, and ways in which they worked to accomplish something?]<BR/>You mean applications of this outside of Christian belief?MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-22358526328882156332008-11-14T15:44:00.000-06:002008-11-14T15:44:00.000-06:00@MFT:What I was claiming is that atheists have no ...@MFT:<BR/><BR/><I>What I was claiming is that atheists have no basis for objective morality.</I><BR/><BR/>I can only speak for one atheist, myself, but why would you think I would care about having a basis for objective morality?Nohmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04810408271483617763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-60570446831511277392008-11-14T15:38:00.000-06:002008-11-14T15:38:00.000-06:00@Clos What I was claiming is that atheists have no...@Clos <BR/>What I was claiming is that atheists have no basis for objective morality. I wasn't dragging the bible in.MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-14741263971969449422008-11-14T15:36:00.000-06:002008-11-14T15:36:00.000-06:00Now you show your dishonesty MFT and I am done wit...Now you show your dishonesty MFT and I am done with you.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Then the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed through Gilead and Manasseh. He passed on to Mizpah of Gilead, and from Mizpah of Gilead he passed on to the Ammonites. 30And Jephthah <B>made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, 31then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’</B><BR/>....<BR/>Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. 35When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’ 36She said to him, ‘My father, if you have opened your mouth to the Lord, do to me according to what has gone out of your mouth, now that the Lord has given you vengeance against your enemies, the Ammonites.’ 37And she said to her father, ‘Let this thing be done for me: Grant me two months, so that I may go and wander* on the mountains, and bewail my virginity, my companions and I.’ 38‘Go,’ he said and sent her away for two months. So she departed, she and her companions, and bewailed her virginity on the mountains. 39At the end of two months, she returned to her father, <B>who did with her according to the vow he had made.</B>BeamStalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17772110446629492132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-56628962487527091682008-11-14T15:32:00.000-06:002008-11-14T15:32:00.000-06:00@MFT:That of course doesn't mean there aren't vali...@MFT:<BR/><BR/><I>That of course doesn't mean there aren't valid ways of knowing stuff outside of evidence though.</I><BR/><BR/>Would you please give a few examples of these, and ways in which they worked to accomplish something?Nohmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04810408271483617763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-84901369260490201132008-11-14T15:29:00.000-06:002008-11-14T15:29:00.000-06:00[Read that carefully and slowly.I suspect I don't ...[Read that carefully and slowly.<BR/><BR/>I suspect I don't have to mention Jephthah in Judges 11.]<BR/>"From the sons of Israel's half, you shall take one drawn out of every fifty of the persons, of the cattle, of the donkeys and of the sheep, from all the animals, and give them to the Levites who keep charge of the tabernacle of the LORD." <BR/><BR/><BR/>I did read it carefully. They gave the people to the Levites. they probaly put them to work in the temple to help sacrifice animals.<BR/><BR/>And Jephthah made a vow to dedicate his daughter (much like the vow hannah made in 1 Samuel 1-2 ). She was going to be dedicated to God and have to remain a virgin the rest of her life. this does not help your case any. The passage explicitly says she went to weep for her virginity.MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-33291544207317985092008-11-14T15:19:00.000-06:002008-11-14T15:19:00.000-06:00MrFreeThinker said..."I'm not a YEC or an ID'er an...MrFreeThinker said...<BR/>"I'm not a YEC or an ID'er and I'm pretty sure most Christians aren't the answers in genesis type. <B>I'm sure most [creationists] would admit they were wrong if faced with strong contrary evidence."</B><BR/><BR/>*facepalm*Debunkey Monkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15355896606457674317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-14904531309182074652008-11-14T15:06:00.000-06:002008-11-14T15:06:00.000-06:00@ Ben FranklinI'm not a YEC or an ID'er and I'm pr...@ Ben Franklin<BR/>I'm not a YEC or an ID'er and I'm pretty sure most Christians aren't the answers in genesis type. I'm sure most would admit they were wrong if faced with strong contrary evidence. That of course doesn't mean there aren't valid ways of knowing stuff outside of evidence though.MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-56908264696850804892008-11-14T15:03:00.001-06:002008-11-14T15:03:00.001-06:00MFT,Have you been able to consider my "thought exp...MFT,<BR/><BR/>Have you been able to consider my "thought experiment" that I mentioned earlier in this comment page?Nohmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04810408271483617763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-41964290360627618482008-11-14T15:03:00.000-06:002008-11-14T15:03:00.000-06:00The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, ‘You and Eleazar ...The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, ‘You and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the ancestral houses of the congregation make an inventory of the booty captured, both human and animal. Divide the booty into two parts, between the warriors who went out to battle and all the congregation. From the share of the warriors who went out to battle, set aside as tribute for the Lord one item out of every five hundred, whether persons, oxen, donkeys, sheep, or goats. Take it from their half and give it to Eleazar the priest as an offering to the Lord. But from the Israelites’ half you shall take one out of every fifty, whether persons, oxen, donkeys, sheep, or goats—all the animals—and give them to the Levites who have charge of the tabernacle of the Lord.’<BR/><BR/>Then Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord had commanded Moses:<BR/><BR/>The booty remaining from the spoil that the troops had taken totalled six hundred and seventy-five thousand sheep, seventy-two thousand oxen, sixty-one thousand donkeys, and thirty-two thousand persons in all, women who had not known a man by sleeping with him.<BR/><BR/>The half-share, the portion of those who had gone out to war, was in number three hundred and thirty-seven thousand five hundred sheep and goats, and the Lord’s tribute of sheep and goats was six hundred and seventy-five. The oxen were thirty-six thousand, of which the Lord’s tribute was seventy-two. The donkeys were thirty thousand five hundred, of which the Lord’s tribute was sixty-one. The persons were sixteen thousand, of which the Lord’s tribute was thirty-two persons. Moses gave the tribute, the offering for the Lord, to Eleazar the priest, as the Lord had commanded Moses. <BR/><BR/>Numbers 31:25-41<BR/><BR/>Read that carefully and slowly.<BR/><BR/>I suspect I don't have to mention Jephthah in Judges 11.BeamStalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17772110446629492132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-48885738618846854102008-11-14T15:01:00.000-06:002008-11-14T15:01:00.000-06:00I hope this doesn't digress into a Sye TenB rant a...I hope this doesn't digress into a Sye TenB rant about "how can you know anything through your worldview?".Clostridiophilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06242245098663362751noreply@blogger.com