tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post4788883069772881787..comments2023-10-29T08:19:51.395-05:00Comments on The Raytractors - Ray Comfort's Detractors: Prophecies SchmocetiesMacGyver Jrhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02307024564664964571noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-12471403277763754882008-10-06T16:33:00.000-05:002008-10-06T16:33:00.000-05:00Failure of Fulfillment, I meant.Failure of Fulfillment, I meant.TJHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10570384567898770658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-80037503783758237822008-10-06T16:31:00.000-05:002008-10-06T16:31:00.000-05:00A good book on Biblical prophecies is Bible Prophe...A good book on Biblical prophecies is Bible Prophecy: Failure of Fulfillment by Tim Callahan. His The Secret Origins of the Bible is good as well.TJHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10570384567898770658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-83798362656380071202008-10-05T20:17:00.000-05:002008-10-05T20:17:00.000-05:00mjarsulic said... freed,One of the reasons I've ne...mjarsulic said... <BR/>freed,<BR/><BR/><I>One of the reasons I've never taken prophecies seriously is that religions, psychics, cults, etc. all have their prophecies that they claim were all fulfilled.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>I understand the confusion. It seems everyone thinks they have the truth, and or course you know where I look for truth. I personally am not aware of the unbiblical prophecies out there. Practices yes, but not prophecies.<BR/><BR/><I>My goal is to develop a criteria for evaluation that theists would agree with in order to evaluate the claims.</I><BR/><BR/>I may be wrong, but I can't see theists having criteria other than what I mentioned before, making it divine revelation concerning Israel and/or the church. Of course there are those who are much smarter and more aware than I am, so maybe you should poll AC. <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Do you prefer a word-for-word or thought-for-thought translation of the Bible.</I><BR/><BR/>I would prefer word-for-word but I don't believe that's possible. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for clearing things up for me concerning your goals. That helped.Cynthiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592429266252545353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-2258709876089803952008-10-05T19:36:00.000-05:002008-10-05T19:36:00.000-05:00freed,One of the things I've been trying to come u...freed,<BR/><BR/>One of the things I've been trying to come up with is a flowchart for evaluating prophecies. One of the reasons I've never taken prophecies seriously is that religions, psychics, cults, etc. all have their prophecies that they claim were all fulfilled. My goal is to develop a criteria for evaluation that theists would agree with in order to evaluate the claims. <BR/><BR/>BTW, the Cubs prediction was flawed in the following ways that would not make it a prophecy:<BR/><BR/>1. It was not divine revelation or any revelation. I developed an hypothesis based on pitcher injuries on teams managed by Dusty Baker and applied a Pitcher Abuse Points (PAP3) metric to determine what pitchers were is danger of injury.<BR/><BR/>2. Stating the injuries would happen in the "near future" makes the prediction vague.<BR/><BR/>3. In my results, I did not state the misses. Carlos Zambrano had a high number of Pitcher Abuse Points but has remained healthy to this day.<BR/><BR/>4. I have good data showing that Tommy John surgery is usually performed on pitchers under the age of 30.<BR/><BR/>Do you prefer a word-for-word or thought-for-thought translation of the Bible.mjarsulichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13699622227304194178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-32792171667382391322008-10-05T19:04:00.000-05:002008-10-05T19:04:00.000-05:00Froggie,The bible clearly states that no one would...Froggie,<BR/><BR/><I><BR/><BR/>The bible clearly states that no one would ever be able to change it's meaning but now they are saying that we have to learn Greek to understand it.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Somebody had to.Cynthiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592429266252545353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-78990296912477275322008-10-05T18:34:00.000-05:002008-10-05T18:34:00.000-05:00mjarsulic said... freed,What I mean is a prophecy ...mjarsulic said... <BR/>freed,<BR/><BR/><I>What I mean is a prophecy in general. For example, if you were to provide criteria for evaluating predictions from a psychic, what would that criteria be. <BR/><BR/>I'm just seeing if we can find some common ground on how to evaluate prophecy/predictions.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Outside of the Bible, I don't have any criteria to list and wouldn't approach a psychic for any reason, so no evaluation necessry.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><I>BTW, in 2003, I predicted that the starting pitchers for the Chicago Cubs would suffer arm/shoulder problems in the near future. <BR/><BR/>Would you consider a prediction like this to be out of the ordinary? Am I a prophet?</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>No, I'd consider you a good guesser. <BR/><BR/>:)Cynthiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592429266252545353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-39347331206768734422008-10-05T18:02:00.000-05:002008-10-05T18:02:00.000-05:00freed,What I mean is a prophecy in general. For ex...freed,<BR/><BR/>What I mean is a prophecy in general. For example, if you were to provide criteria for evaluating predictions from a psychic, what would that criteria be.<BR/><BR/>I'm just seeing if we can find some common ground on how to evaluate prophecy/predictions.<BR/><BR/>BTW, in 2003, I predicted that the starting pitchers for the Chicago Cubs would suffer arm/shoulder problems in the near future. Here's the results:<BR/><BR/>Sean Estes: elbow surgery (2006)<BR/>Mark Prior: shoulder surgery (2007)<BR/>Kerry Wood: torn rotator cuff (2006)<BR/>Matt Clement: shoulder surgery (2006)<BR/><BR/>Would you consider a prediction like this to be out of the ordinary? Am I a prophet?mjarsulichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13699622227304194178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-1602397255532422552008-10-05T17:28:00.000-05:002008-10-05T17:28:00.000-05:00mjarsulic said... freed,I would not say a predicti...mjarsulic said... <BR/>freed,<BR/><BR/><I>I would not say a prediction of a future event is a valid prophecy. You are leaving it open to any and all predictions, including the mundane.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Correct. I'm sorry, I overlooked the word 'valid' in your question.<BR/><BR/>I've never given that exact question any thought before, but without looking elsewhere, I would say a valid prediction would concern Israel and/or for the church (in the NT). That is in my opinion only.Cynthiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592429266252545353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-55712238581403142592008-10-05T17:08:00.000-05:002008-10-05T17:08:00.000-05:00Freed is falling into the old trap.The bible clear...Freed is falling into the old trap.<BR/><BR/>The bible clearly states that no one would ever be able to change it's meaning but now they are saying that we have to learn Greek to understand it. <BR/><BR/>That is plain horsehockey through and through.<BR/><BR/>The bible also claims that those who read it will be given the gift of discernment so that they can understand it. I read it and I have discerned that it is just what it is; an expository of early pre-scientific authoritarian and controlling men who are trying to perpetuate their society..<BR/><BR/>God heads all over the world have used their supposed understanding of their supernatural beings to control their people.<BR/>It's nothing new and nothing unique.Froggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12972110380349786742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-24192580419851064752008-10-05T17:02:00.000-05:002008-10-05T17:02:00.000-05:00freed,I would not say a prediction of a future eve...freed,<BR/><BR/>I would not say a prediction of a future event is a valid prophecy. You are leaving it open to any and all predictions, including the mundane.mjarsulichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13699622227304194178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-30128834938315291672008-10-05T16:11:00.000-05:002008-10-05T16:11:00.000-05:00Freed officially wins the internets for double-plu...Freed officially wins the internets for double-plus-excessive overuse of a commenter's name in a reply.<BR/><BR/>Maybe he thinks it's intimidating...?Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16500994763769614452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-7467635022376543362008-10-05T15:26:00.000-05:002008-10-05T15:26:00.000-05:00That's a bit circular is it not?No. I gave a spec...<I>That's a bit circular is it not?</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>No. I gave a specific example, muffin. The challenge was to not use someone else's words.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>"If not fulfilled, then the obvious is we are waiting for a future fulfillment."<BR/><BR/>How convenient.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>What other answer would have sufficed, muffin?<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><I>As someone already pointed out, there's no time limit on these so called prophesies.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason there has to be a time limit. We are all still here. <BR/><BR/><BR/><I> A few thousand years is quite a long time. I could make 1000 predictions right now that eventually, a lot of them will come true. That doesn't mean I was told by your god that these things would happen.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Very true, muffin, you weren't.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>It means I made a buncha shit up and people waited a few hundred or thousand years and saw stuff happening!</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Yes, muffin. You would have to make it up and I'd still be waiting eternity x infinity.Cynthiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592429266252545353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-3068182908834867582008-10-05T14:54:00.000-05:002008-10-05T14:54:00.000-05:00Freed said-"I do. I use the Bible to prove itself....Freed said-<BR/>"I do. I use the Bible to prove itself."<BR/><BR/>That's a bit circular is it not?<BR/><BR/>"If not fulfilled, then the obvious is we are waiting for a future fulfillment."<BR/><BR/>How convenient. As someone already pointed out, there's no time limit on these so called prophesies. A few thousand years is quite a long time. I could make 1000 predictions right now that eventually, a lot of them will come true. That doesn't mean I was told by your god that these things would happen. It means I made a buncha shit up and people waited a few hundred or thousand years and saw stuff happening!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-82369452977459990842008-10-05T13:10:00.000-05:002008-10-05T13:10:00.000-05:00mjarsulic said... freed,Do you think that instead ...mjarsulic said... <BR/>freed,<BR/><BR/><I>Do you think that instead of relying of someone else's word that you should come up with a way of evaluating prophecies on your own.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>I do. I use the Bible to prove itself. <BR/><BR/><BR/><I>For example, how would you determine what make a valid prophecy.</I><BR/><BR/>A prediction of a future event.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Also, what criteria do you use to determine if a prophecy has been fulfilled properly.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>One would have to study history if it was already fulfilled. Josephus<BR/>is a reliable source. If not fulfilled, then the obvious is we are waiting for a future fulfillment.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Why can't the fulfillment of prophecies be evidence-based? Do you think there is no better way than saying "[insert bible scholar here] said this is a fulfilled prophecy.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>I don't say that. I do say studying the Bible, not simply reading it, and looking for commentary on certain scripture will help you find the evidence. <BR/><BR/>Word study is good also. You need to study an english word compared to it in Greek or Hebrew, whichever the case may be. The Bible explains itself, you just have to look for it.<BR/><BR/>Take a verse using the terminology "God's Kingdom". Most would think this means the end of the age or last days. It doesn't.<BR/>The Bible tells us that "The Kingdom of God does not come with observation...The Kingdom of God is within you." (That's in Luke).<BR/><BR/>The fact that I use my Bible, 3 commentaries, and take advantage of the studies 13 men of God, and Bible scholars have done, makes me confident in what I say to you.<BR/><BR/>I'm not just sitting here spouting words. I really do search things out.Cynthiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592429266252545353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-47045664847451525982008-10-05T12:30:00.000-05:002008-10-05T12:30:00.000-05:00freed,Do you think that instead of relying of some...freed,<BR/><BR/>Do you think that instead of relying of someone else's word that you should come up with a way of evaluating prophecies on your own. For example, how would you determine what make a valid prophecy. Also, what criteria do you use to determine if a prophecy has been fulfilled properly.<BR/><BR/>Why can't the fulfillment of prophecies be evidence-based? Do you think there is no better way than saying "[insert bible scholar here] said this is a fulfilled prophecy.mjarsulichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13699622227304194178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-3855002253059555772008-10-05T12:08:00.000-05:002008-10-05T12:08:00.000-05:00mrfreethinker said...But I'm not the one who claim...mrfreethinker said...<BR/><BR/><I>But I'm not the one who claimed they were fulfilled,you guys claimed they weren't fulfilled. The burden of proof is on you guys making the claim.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Exactly.<BR/><BR/>I began to research the prophecies listed in Froggie's post and stopped after 3 or 4 of them. As I've said before, get a good commentary and study Bible if you want to tell Christians what the Bible says and what it means.Cynthiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592429266252545353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-65381681009044014192008-10-05T11:17:00.000-05:002008-10-05T11:17:00.000-05:00I personally think using prophecy is a poor argume...I personally think using prophecy is a poor argument because you all go end up arguing dating and whetheri was self-fulfilling and sometime archeology. The argument isn't worth its trouble.<BR/>But I'm not the one who claimed they were fulfilled,you guys claimed they weren't fulfilled. The burden of proof is on you guys making the claim.MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-37771639288516092162008-10-05T07:57:00.000-05:002008-10-05T07:57:00.000-05:00Exactly as mrfreethinker pointed out, the "prophec...Exactly as mrfreethinker pointed out, the "prophecies" have the best loophole ever -- no time limits! So, like, yeahhhh, a river may have dried up on several different occasions. A city may have fallen into ruin in between empires. And as for the biggies, such as famine and war, you show me one moment in the entire continuum of human history where there hasn't been famine or war SOMEWHERE, even if it was just one small African nation or an island in the Mediterranean. But the Bobbleheads love to come back with "Oh, no, not THOSE wars and famines. They were nothing compared to the one that's GONNA come! Just you wait..." Blah. Blah. And Blah. I'm still waiting.Vollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514280952695776270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-31592381146004462542008-10-05T02:55:00.000-05:002008-10-05T02:55:00.000-05:00The Immanuel is self-fulfilling, coz the Christers...The Immanuel is self-fulfilling, coz the Christers call him Emmanuel in church and in their songs. QED.<BR/><BR/>It's annoying because if the scripture had said "He would be called The Chowmeister" then they'd sing that too.Stewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13584058723818113125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-58359858098793922132008-10-05T02:54:00.000-05:002008-10-05T02:54:00.000-05:00@ mrfreethinkerDon't worry, there were several arg...@ mrfreethinker<BR/><BR/>Don't worry, there were several arguments he seemed to have trouble with. ;) It was just his misfortune to walk straight into this one at the end.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, however, it seems like it takes an awful lot of mental, logical and historical gymnastics to try to explain how the unfulfillment of those prophecies is not a valid argument / they really were fulfilled. You'd think God's inerrant word, intended to save us all from hellfire would be a little more straightforward...<BR/><BR/>Just my opinion.<BR/><BR/>Additionally, would you care to furnish some proof that Damascus was "temporarily" destroyed, the Nile "temporarily" dried up, why Jesus words shouldn't be taken at actual value (in reference to the generation he addressed not "passing" until end times prophecy was fulfilled) etc? Not necessarily picking a fight, but as we all love to point out, the burden of proof is on you if you want to defend the miraculous fulfillment of bronze-age prophecies, so I really would like to hear your reasoning more in-depth. ("Bronze-age" You can tell I just got done watching Religulous lol.)<BR/><BR/>Thanks :)Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16500994763769614452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-91831036463456433942008-10-05T02:52:00.000-05:002008-10-05T02:52:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16500994763769614452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-90235177279701614312008-10-05T02:36:00.000-05:002008-10-05T02:36:00.000-05:00Genesis 26:4: yes Christianity is spreading all ov...Genesis 26:4: <BR/>yes Christianity is spreading all over there are lots.<BR/>Isaiah 7:14<BR/>Go to the thread on this topic. People provided quotes from people with Phd's in semetic language and biblical translators as to the correct translation of almah and betulah only to see you guy regurgitate this false crap.<BR/>Isaiah 17:1<BR/>Can't a city be destroyed temporarily?<BR/>Isaiah 19:4-5<BR/>Couldn't the nile dry up temporarily?<BR/>Isaiah 19:18<BR/>Evidence for this?<BR/>Isaiah 52:1<BR/>Refers to the people not of god. it speaks of a future time.<BR/>Ezekiel 29:10-11<BR/>Provide evidence to the contrary. I've read archeologists (like David Rohl) who think it did happen. Unless youprovide evidence to the contrary I cannot say much.<BR/>http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/Book1.html<BR/>Amos 9:15 <BR/>Conditional promise<BR/>Jonah 3:4<BR/>It was a warning<BR/>Matthew 1:22-23<BR/>I guess you grew up in a western soiety where it was unthinkable for people tohave different names for religious purposes? Or you never considered the name could be referring to hs characteristics and not his literal name?<BR/>Matthew 2:23 <BR/>Its a composite citation. it ties into the idea of a messiah coming lowly.<BR/>Matthew 12:5<BR/>What? Jesus is describing how the desecrate the sabbath<BR/>Matthew 24:34<BR/>One word-preterism<BR/>Matthew 27:9 <BR/>Conflated citation.he is conflating some of the words of Zacheriah and Jeremiah.Normal in rabbinical literature.<BR/>Matthew 26:64<BR/>preterism<BR/><BR/>It's sad that that poor evangelist wasn't so informed.This stuff is bunk.MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-4041811845016118762008-10-05T01:09:00.000-05:002008-10-05T01:09:00.000-05:00I almost wish I was a member here so I could post ...I almost wish I was a member here so I could post this, it was so weird.<BR/><BR/>My roomie and I went to see Religulous tonight (which is awesome, by the way; I count at least 10 belly-laughs) and were walking back down the street to catch the bus to campus, and lo' and behold 3 blocks later what did we run into? A street evangelist. This wouldn't be big news, except that Mr. Gospel had a table full of religious literature/paraphernalia/tracts and they were <B>all</B> <I>Way of the Master</I> tracts. Well...Since I read this blog every day, and Ray's at least a few times a week, and since Ray himself had a little nod in Religulous, I figured I had to stop.<BR/><BR/>He was a Rayzombie, no question; I counted at least 2 references to Pascal's wager, multiple "No True Scotsman" fallacies and a whole lot of, "You just want to disprove the Bible" (because there's something wrong with that...?) At some point we ended up briefly on the topic of Noah's flood, which after multiple attempts on my part to examine in a scientific light (I'm an oceanography major... we care about the ocean basins) he could only defend by saying I was just "leaving God out of it." (Right. That clears things up.)<BR/><BR/>Finally, however we ended up at the unverifiability of scripture, which he refuted by bringing up "fulfilled prophecy," at which point I was like, "what about the unfulfilled prophecies?" And, silly man, assuming I would have no answer, he asked for specific examples of unfulfilled prophecy. Freakin', Raytractors to the rescue! I had Raytractors open on my iPhone and just started reading the list of prophecies aloud for him. It was baller. Massively.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, it all dissolved into him claiming (again) that I was only interested in disproving the Bible. (Call me crazy but if the Bible can be disproved that's sort of a big deal...)<BR/><BR/>Anyway. Sorry for the uber-long comment, but this is officially a Raytractor's testimonial. Thanks Raytractors; you helped me make someone look stupid! :)Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16500994763769614452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-75791363855383799582008-10-04T21:40:00.000-05:002008-10-04T21:40:00.000-05:00Over at Ray's blog I'm arguing with some guy about...Over at Ray's blog I'm arguing with some guy about Messianic prophecies and such.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/2008/09/atheists-dont-study-bible.html?showComment=1222788360000#c8015370848690980740" REL="nofollow">me</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/2008/09/atheists-dont-study-bible.html?showComment=1222861080000#c4063611610116426778" REL="nofollow">him</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/2008/09/atheists-dont-study-bible.html?showComment=1222942560000#c2547080761510004263" REL="nofollow">me</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/2008/09/atheists-dont-study-bible.html?showComment=1223066400000#c6959228496756489337" REL="nofollow">him</A><BR/><BR/><BR/>I've asked if he's amenable to taking it <A HREF="http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10439" REL="nofollow">over to a different site</A>, since Ray's posts get "older" almost as fast as the ones here.<BR/><BR/>I've put in two more replies to him (one dealing with Messianic prophecies and one dealing with Micheal Brown's video discussing anti-semitism). I'm waiting to see if they get posted. <BR/><BR/>Ray's been good to me in that regard at least.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I've also gottten an email response from a Jewish scholar about the cessation of the Yom Kippur sacrifices about 30 years before the destruction of the temple. Scott alleges that it's because after christ's "sacrifice" it was no longer needed or something. <BR/><BR/>I had to email someone about that, because every reference on the net I could find only had the Christian version of events!<BR/><BR/>If the scholar doesn't give me permission to quote him for a later response to Scott, I'll just have to summarize what he said in my own words, which will, of course, suck.Reynoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316048340050664487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4140917903722388348.post-86358689048804103312008-10-04T21:32:00.000-05:002008-10-04T21:32:00.000-05:00There is no example where it can be demonstrated t...There is no example where it can be demonstrated that 'almah' refers to a young woman who is not a virgin.Cynthiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592429266252545353noreply@blogger.com